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1,900 vets commit suicide since January 1. GOP blocks bill providing benefits.

By jazz_music follow jazz_music   2014 Apr 1, 12:04pm 18,402 views   89 comments   watch   nsfw   quote   share    


2.6 million veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan still struggling with physical or mental health.

Just weeks after the Senate GOP blocked a bill providing help to veterans, news has emerged showing that 1,900 veterans have committed suicide since January 1, 2014.

http://www.businessinsider.com/veterans-suicide-2014-3

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50   edvard2   ignore (1)   2014 Apr 2, 6:23am     ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag      

curious2 says

LOL - I didn't even use the word "average" I said median, learn the difference. I chose those five because their lifespans are undisputed, most of them were well off but all their money couldn't buy any modern medicine because it did not exist.

Same fucking difference. Median means the "middle number". These men had access to things the majority of the populace didn't. Hence they lived longer, and yes- they did in fact have access to healthcare then, which despite the differences between today's medicine and that of that period, having access to that healthcare meant they could receive treatments for ailments that most otherwise did not. So my point still stands.

Just spit it out: Are you trying to tell us all here that healthcare isn't necessary? Some are rather curious because this conversation grows more amusing by the minute.

51   curious2   ignore (0)   2014 Apr 2, 6:26am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

edvard2 says

Are you trying to tell us all here that healthcare isn't necessary?

No. But most of the spending is either useless or injurious, driven by political patronage networks for their own power. Just because legislation has "health" in the title doesn't make it good for your health.

edvard2 says

Some are rather curious

I am curious. You are a partisan parrot. Notice how almost all my comments have links to actual sources and real data, while you merely taunt and call me names like a schoolyard bully. SURPRISE: I'm not afraid of bullies, so your tactics only cost you what respect I had for you.

52   Bellingham Bill   ignore (5)   2014 Apr 2, 6:30am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

edvard2 says

In the 1776 the average life expectency was 35 years.

This is 1850, but interesting. Life expectancy for white Massuchessets men by age:

0 38.3
10 58.0
20 60.1
30 64.0
40 67.9
50 71.6
60 75.6
70 80.2
80 85.9

Read more: Life Expectancy by Age, 1850–2011 | Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005140.html#ixzz2xlLnYLcx

So people old enough to live to be President are already in the elite 70+ age survivorship. Add in that they get the best living conditions available and it's not surprising to see another 10 years of longevity.

53   curious2   ignore (0)   2014 Apr 2, 6:34am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Bellingham Bill says

Read more: Life Expectancy by Age, 1850–2011 | Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005140.html#ixzz2xlLnYLcx

Thanks - btw it shows the females lived even longer. The main difference between the Presidents and other males was, the Presidents were all educated, and education remains the best predictor of longevity.

54   edvard2   ignore (1)   2014 Apr 2, 6:34am     ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag      

curious2 says

No. But most of the spending is either useless or injurious, driven by political patronage networks for their own power. Just because legislation has "health" in the title doesn't make it good for your health.

Exactly! So you just correctly pinpointed one of the main reasons the ACA was passed in the first place.curious2 says

I am curious. You are a partisan parrot. Notice how almost all my comments have links to actual sources and real data, while you merely taunt and call me names like a schoolyard bully. SURPRISE: I'm not afraid of bullies, so your tactics only cost you what respect I had for you.

Am I? No. I simply think for myself. I have an opinion and when I see something that doesn't make sense I make a comment. For example, seeing the parts mentioned about SSRI's being toxic and harmful combined with a link to a study which has nothing to do with SSRI's means I feel compelled to call that out and make corrections. Secondly, I don't call people names. The verbiage I used had nothing to do with you and everything to do with the comments. Understand the difference. Calling people names on a forum is lame. Open debate is not "Bullying". Additionally, don't act like you are totally guilt-free of the exact same type of behavior, so don't act all innocent.

55   Bellingham Bill   ignore (5)   2014 Apr 2, 6:35am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

curious2 says

But most of the spending is either useless or injurious, driven by political patronage networks for their own power

well, yeah, given that our $9000 per-capita is 3X that of more efficient health systems, that's true.

But to change that we have to start somewhere, and ACA was what our corrupt system was able to vend us.

It is entirely conservative, and that's its main problem, but too much reform means you are fighting very powerful interests, interests that can torpedo political careers quite easily.

See 1993-94 and HillaryCare for how that worked.

And also the 2010 wave election that wiped out many ACA supporters after the GOP lied about ACA cutting Medicare (it cuts Medicare Part C, the idiot 1990s conservative attempt to get more Medicare money to their patrons).

56   Shaman   ignore (2)   2014 Apr 2, 6:42am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

From an NPR article I read a couple years ago, the seratonin suppressor form of antidepressants came out in a bad light. No scientifically significant benefit was derived toward this end in double blind studies, but the advertising campaign for their use towards this condition was WILDLY successful. It seems that people who are a little bit nuts and can't control their own minds prefer to think of their condition as a "chemical imbalance" which can be easily corrected by inventive pharmaceutical intervention. This leads to a fair amount of them getting off their beds and walking, obviously miracle cures.
What is known, however, is that the placebo effect is very real. When the mind is convinced that it's receiving a cure, it will often react to this with positive feedback that actually increases health and immunity. The mind-body connection is very strong in most humans, and this is the reason we do placebo trials. Thinking of the mind and the body as two unrelated systems is erroneous, and is the source of hundreds of billions in futile medical treatment each year.

57   edvard2   ignore (1)   2014 Apr 2, 6:52am     ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag      

Quigley says

From an NPR article I read a couple years ago, the seratonin suppressor form of antidepressants came out in a bad light. No scientifically significant benefit was derived toward this end in double blind studies, but the advertising campaign for their use towards this condition was WILDLY successful. It seems that people who are a little bit nuts and can't control their own minds prefer to think of their condition as a "chemical imbalance" which can be easily corrected by inventive pharmaceutical intervention. This leads to a fair amount of them getting off their beds and walking, obviously miracle cures.

Yes... you too are now a qualified scientist since you read an article on NPR, and therefor it must be true, and SSRI's are a bunch of hooey. I read an article one time too. It said that Vaccines caused Autism. Must be true then.

Like I said- talk all you want about SSRI's not working. As someone who is on them and tried many other things before, I can say that they do indeed work and unless you're someone who also has these same issues and has been through treatment, then you don't really have a say in this debate.

58   curious2   ignore (0)   2014 Apr 2, 6:55am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Reminds me of the coffee commercial, we switched this restaurant's regular coffee with [blank's] crystals. Watch out for the day the pharmacist counts out the wrong pills into your little bottle. At least because citalopram has a longer half-life than paroxetine, you're less likely to experience those "not habit forming" "discontinuation syndrome" withdrawal symptoms.

Pro-Tip: when swallowing your toxic SSRI placebos, always use bottled water.

59   HydroCabron   ignore (1)   2014 Apr 2, 6:56am     ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag      

Quigley says

It seems that people who are a little bit nuts and can't control their own minds prefer to think of their condition as a "chemical imbalance"

I'm lost: how is it not chemical, given that our entire bodies are chemicals?

What is known, however, is that the placebo effect is very real.

True story - anecdote, not data: the placebo effect worked on my cat.

My cat was leaking all over the place - outside the box - and the vet said "try a sliver of Prozac."

Thanks to the placebo effect, my cat thinks she's less anxious, and therefore is less anxious. Has not tinkled on the rug since then.

I am going to start taking a placebo every day.

60   edvard2   ignore (1)   2014 Apr 2, 7:02am     ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag      

curious2 says

Pro-Tip: when swallowing your toxic SSRI placebos, always use bottled water.

I've already proved repeatedly that SSRI's are no more dangerous than any other drug, but if you want to keep on yammerin' on about it, feel free. Just realize most people with at least some degree of intelligence will raise eyebrows.

61   Shaman   ignore (2)   2014 Apr 2, 7:12am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

My mom swears that Kangen (TM) brand alkaline water has cured her illnesses, helped her lose weight, and helps with joint pain.
I looked this up and it was easily disproved that ingesting alkaline water has any effect at all on the body, as it's instantly titrated by stomach acid. The human body maintains a constant pH of 7.55, and any deviation of more than 0.05 will be noticed immediately. If the goal of the water was to raise blood PH by decreasing acidity, it would be doing the body harm. If your blood acidity grows, you feel a need to breathe, and exhale CO2, which is the mechanism by which the body regulates oxygen/CO2 levels. This is why if you hold your breath, you feel like your lungs are on fire and feel a strong desire to breathe, but if the cabin of a high altitude airplane is depressurized, everyone just passes out.

All this said, referenced, and based on scientific fact could not sway my mom from her steadfast belief in the miracle cure that is Kangen water.

Some people were just born to believe.

62   HydroCabron   ignore (1)   2014 Apr 2, 7:22am     ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag      

Quigley says

The human body maintains a constant pH of 7.55, and any deviation of more than 0.05 will be noticed immediately. If the goal of the water was to raise blood PH by decreasing acidity, it would be doing the body harm.

Don't buy into the lies!

The very concepts "pH" and "buffer solution" are the creations of - yeah, you guessed it! - the scientific establishment, who are given grants on condition that their research bolsters predetermined conclusions acceptable to Big Pharma and FedGov.

Wake up, sheeple!

63   mell   ignore (6)   2014 Apr 2, 7:23am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Quigley says

I looked this up and it was easily disproved that ingesting alkaline water has any effect at all on the body, as it's instantly titrated by stomach acid. The human body maintains a constant pH of 7.55, and any deviation of more than 0.05 will be noticed immediately. If the goal of the water was to raise blood PH by decreasing acidity, it would be doing the body harm.

There could be more to that than just belief. It could be the body's reaction to correct the ph level that may be beneficial in her case. Not everybody has too much acid, a lot of people don't make enough stomach acid (esp. after overuse of anti-acids and antibiotics or just in general), which fosters the growth of yeast and unwanted gut bacteria. You never know.. ;)

64   edvard2   ignore (1)   2014 Apr 2, 8:12am     ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag      

Quigley says

My mom swears that Kangen (TM) brand alkaline water has cured her illnesses, helped her lose weight, and helps with joint pain.

Ahhh.. I see what you did there. So basically you mention how you disproved how quack medicine ( alkaline water) doesn't cause people to lose weight and therefor that totally makes your previous point about SSRI's valid. Brilliant!

You know what? I read an article that cigarettes are good for you. I know you might find it hard to believe, but I'm not one to believe mountains of scientific and medical facts which claim otherwise. You see, I never went to medical school and so I can with confidence say I know a lot more than they do and so whatever I say here on this forum is true.

65   curious2   ignore (0)   2014 Apr 2, 8:53am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

OK, so if you only believe the manufacturer of your toxic SSRI placebos, here it is from the horse's mouth, the citalopram prescribing information including the black box warning mandated by FDA:

"Suicidality and Antidepressant Drugs

Antidepressants increased the risk compared to placebo of suicidal thinking and behavior (suicidality) in children, adolescents, and young adults in short-term studies of major depressive disorder (MDD) and other psychiatric disorders... (See WARNINGS: Clinical Worsening and Suicide Risk, PRECAUTIONS: Information for Patients, and PRECAUTIONS: Pediatric Use.)
***
Pooled analyses of short-term placebo-controlled trials of antidepressant drugs (SSRIs and others) showed that these drugs increase the risk of suicidal thinking and behavior (suicidality) in children, adolescents, and young adults (ages 18-24) with major depressive disorder (MDD) and other psychiatric disorders.
***
During marketing of Celexa and other SSRIs and SNRIs (serotonin and norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors), there have been spontaneous reports of adverse events occurring upon discontinuation of these drugs, particularly when abrupt, including the following: dysphoric mood, irritability, agitation, dizziness, sensory disturbances (e.g., paresthesias such as electric shock sensations), anxiety, confusion, headache, lethargy, emotional lability, insomnia, and hypomania
***
SSRIs and SNRIs, including Celexa, may increase the risk of bleeding events."

Those are just the parts that relate directly to the OP. There's lots more, including that even the manufacturer's own data (see above about "rescue countries") found those pills were twice as likely to cause nausea as benefit, but at least citalopram isn't as bad as its more popular cousin paroxetine (advertised on TV as Paxil). Also, you seem to misunderstand the word toxic, so you might want to look that up. I'd link to a definition but, this being a forum, you wouldn't believe me.

66   Robert Sproul   ignore (0)   2014 Apr 2, 9:15am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

edvard2 says

Whatever "studies" these are I would dearly love to see.

Well, there are a number of them. Here is one, published in JAMA, that got a lot of attention a few years ago:
"The magnitude of benefit of antidepressant medication compared with placebo increases with severity of depression symptoms and may be minimal or nonexistent, on average, in patients with mild or moderate symptoms"
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=185157
Hey, if the placebo works and the side effects are manageable (no homicidal or suicidal ideation, or severe libido decline, I hope) I say go for it.

67   dublin hillz   ignore (0)   2014 Apr 2, 9:39am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

SSRIs work on inhibiting seratonin reuptake by the cells, i.e. making more of it available at synapse. However, issues such as anxiety/depression have more going on than simply low levels of seratonin. There are a myriad of nuerotrasmitters that may be at play such as dopamine, gaba, etc. SSRIs don't do anything for those and some other substances that target dopamine have many deleterious side effects. In fact even SSRIs have been linked to suicidal tendencies in teenagers so they are not really "safe" from holistic perspective. And the fact that they must be taken for life is outright frightening.

68   curious2   ignore (0)   2014 Apr 2, 9:48am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

dublin hillz says

the fact that they must be taken for life is outright frightening.

Especially since the price (including the required Rx) has been increased artificially to levels that most people can't even afford, thus converting the addicts into compulsive advocates for mandatory subsidized insurance. The more people PhRMA can put on addictive "not habit forming" pills, and the higher it can raise the prices with subsidies and "no lifetime caps," the more captive constituents it can corral into its CAFO feedlot. BTW, the increased suicidality is particularly pronounced (i.e. around double the risk compared to placebo) in the 18-24 cohort, precisely the age of many of the returning vets who are offing themselves as described in the OP.

69   Robert Sproul   ignore (0)   2014 Apr 2, 10:03am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

curious2 says

Antibiotics and vaccines did help in reducing infant mortality,

This is the reason for our increased longevity.
American Allopathy wants you to think it is the half million (X 250 thousand bucks) bypass surgeries they scare people into every year.
A Mayo study last year found that 40 (or possibly 60) percent of current medical practices may be ineffective.
http://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/2013/07/26/mayo-clinic-146-common-practices-we-should-reconsider

70   Robert Sproul   ignore (0)   2014 Apr 2, 10:11am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

If we are slinging SSRI anecdotes, here is mine.
I watched a person very close to me come off of Paroxetine, after taking it for several years. It was wrenching, an emotional nightmare. It took months to wean off and I don't think it could have been successful if they had been trying hold a job.

71   curious2   ignore (0)   2014 Apr 2, 10:25am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Robert Sproul says

Paroxetine

That's one of the most addictive, due mainly to the short serum half-life; BBC reported on it in an extended documentary program and individual reports; other published studies have found it more addictive than heroin and similarly habit forming to cocaine. GSK advertised it on American TV as "not habit forming" until FDA made them stop.

"Paxil is Forever"

In Orwellian PhRMA-speak, "not habit forming" means incredibly addictive.

73   edvard2   ignore (1)   2014 Apr 3, 12:59am     ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag      

I sort of figured when I came back online and saw this post much of the same sort of armchair medical discussions would be ongoing.

I'm going to conclude my involvement with this because just like most things in life, unless you yourself are involved directly with a medical treatment then you have absolutely no clue what its really like and by making generalized statements merely pulled from a google search doesn't automatically make you an expert or correct.

This sort of discussion has morphed into the same kind of discussion akin to the ones made concerning vaccines and the supposed links to autism. The reports that were initially made out as "expert" medical opinion later turned out to lack any ties to real medical reality. Yet as we see now with even some links on this forum there are now occurrences of measles and other totally preventable diseases afflicting children across the country. All because people read something on the Internet.Everyone has become an "expert".

Anyone could pick any subject- whether it be political, medical, science, or religion and easily find a number of links to studies made by experts of every field which would support any opinion they might have and use this as 'proof' of their beliefs. Its easy to forget that those experts, statisticians, and reporters are actually not really all that different from anyone else. They have an opinion and we all know what we say about opinions...

I find it especially troubling that more and more, people seem to be using the Internet to either self-diagnose themselves or to scare the crap out of themselves over anything. They do so and believe they now have the expertise to make a call. You could easily find the very worst outcome of anything related to a medical procedure out there. If you want to find horror stories, you can. Its easy because its all out there floating around with no shortage of studies, opinions, and so on.

At the end of the day we are all different- both mentally and physically. There are no magic cure-all drugs or medical procedures. Every person reacts differently to medications, procedures, and operations. Just because someone here and there has an adverse reaction to one thing doesn't mean EVERYONE will have the same reaction. The best way to deal with medical problems is to see your doctor and build a relationship with him or her. There is a big difference between someone who viewed a couple of medical papers from their cubicle compared to a doctor who spent a decade or more in school before even getting into their profession.

In closing, there seems to be a lot of ignorance in general concerning mental issues. Even as of today mental issues are stigmatized and swept under the carpet as one of those things to be hidden from society as a sort of shameful thing. This attitude alone is reason why so many people who probably should seek treatment don't. I have no problem mentioning my situation. To me its like anything else. If you have a heart condition then you can do something about it much in the same way as a mental condition. Finally doing something about my issues changed my life and I am a better person for it. And so I encourage others who might be suffering to seek help.

That's really all I have to about this.

74   anonymous   ignore (null)   2014 Apr 3, 1:36am     ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag      

The message should still ring true, JUST SAY NO, TO DRUGS

There are so many undesirable outcomes that have manifested over the recent decades that can be linked to the Standard American Diet. You still are what you eat, and your outputs often come from your inputs. Most people could likely remedy whatever it is that is bothering them, by doing an elimination diet experiment on themselves. Anecdotally, all the people I've met, and forums I've read and participated in, the greatest results are yielded by righting ones diet.

Americans comfort level to taking drugs, and "solving" their "problems" via drugs (especially the ones they see advertised on tv), should scare any one of sound mind. The SAD (standard american diet) is loaded with toxins and short on nutrients. armed with proper knowledge of nutrition, one could likely avoid the doctor, dentist, and optimoligist, indefinitely

75   edvard2   ignore (1)   2014 Apr 3, 2:46am     ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag      

errc says

armed with proper knowledge of nutrition, one could likely avoid the doctor, dentist, and optimoligist, indefinitely

Amazing. Just absolutely amazing. So are you trying to tell us all that you've miraculously discovered that all ya' gotta' do is eat right and you'll somehow always be free of cancer, heart disease, alzheimer's disease, and all the other diseases that in many cases have nothing to do with anything other than hereditary factors?

I recall that we had this very same conversation several months ago and even so, I'm still baffled that anyone living in modern society would suddenly proclaim that modern medicine is a big waste of time. That is such awful advice.

Secondly, why are you demonizing drugs? Its not like drugs are this new thing that is veiled in conspiracy. For example if you went in for an operation. Back in the "good old days", the general way of operating on a person was to get them wasted drunk, have several strong men hold them down, and put a stick in the patient's mouth to bite down on. Surely that can't be better than general or localized anesthesia, right?

Now- I will agree with your comment about food. Most Americans eat diets that are horrific. Lots and lots of sweet, salty, fatty foods with hordes of chemicals, preservatives, and processing. Heart disease, diabetes, cancer, and a host of other medical problems are tied to obesity and poor diet. But diet alone is not what causes people to get sick. Diet alone- a good one- is not a substitute for avoiding the doctor's office or even routine medical care. I just find this interesting because its not like this idea is new. Back in the 1800's there was a movement towards "the waters" where many believed fervently that "taking to the waters", which were natural hot springs and mineral baths were the cure-all for all ailments and that one could avoid the bothersome trips to the doctor as a result. So its ironic that here we are, in 2014 with a suggestion that's not all that different- that by simply eating right one could avoid the doctor. Eating right will certainly make you healthy. But its not going to prevent you from having to see the doctor or any other number of medical professionals over the course of a lifetime of unforeseen medical issues, of which food alone will not sure...

76   bob2356   ignore (5)   2014 Apr 3, 2:55am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

errc says

The SAD (standard american diet) is loaded with toxins and short on nutrients. armed with proper knowledge of nutrition, one could likely avoid the doctor, dentist, and optimoligist, indefinitely

Good diet is important but if you think it will totally negate the effects of genetics, aging, daily exposure to carcinigens (natural and man made), daily exposure to radiation (also natural and man made), etc., etc., etc. then you are in for some very sad disappointments later in life.

77   edvard2   ignore (1)   2014 Apr 3, 3:12am     ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag      

bob2356 says

Good diet is important but if you think it will totally negate the effects of genetics, aging, daily exposure to carcinigens (natural and man made), daily exposure to radiation (also natural and man made), etc., etc., etc. then you are in for some very sad disappointments later in life.

Indeed and perhaps the single biggest reason why a suggestion that somehow XXX sort of action will avoid one from having to use medical procedures.

Truth be known the majority of cancers are caused by man made materials as well as natural sources of radiation, particulate matter, and so on. None of these can be avoided as they are in the air, soil, water, and food.

78   Robert Sproul   ignore (0)   2014 Apr 3, 3:21am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

edvard2 says

I'm still baffled that anyone living in modern society would suddenly proclaim that modern medicine is a big waste of time.

This Mayo study indicates that 40-60% of it is exactly that.
Best estimates for iatrogenic harm indicate that it can be much more tragic than just a waste of time. It may be the third leading cause of death.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iatrogenesis#Incidence_and_importance

79   anonymous   ignore (null)   2014 Apr 3, 3:26am     ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag      

You gals are putting a lot of words in my mouth.

Oddly enough, you both went on to agree with me anyways.

The point is, without fixing ones diet, its more or less impossible to fix ones health.

Now, I'm certain we will disagree as to what proper nutrition looks like, but my position is still the same.

That more than half of all instances and occurances of adverse health can be resolved thru proper nutrtion.

What % of health care related events do you suppose are rooted in malnutrition?

80   Shaman   ignore (2)   2014 Apr 3, 3:31am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Here's one to rile the posters:
Severe libido decline of tricyclics isn't a bug, it's a feature, meant to slow the procreation of the mentally unfit.

81   bob2356   ignore (5)   2014 Apr 3, 3:36am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Robert Sproul says

edvard2 says

I'm still baffled that anyone living in modern society would suddenly proclaim that modern medicine is a big waste of time.

This Mayo study indicates that 40-60% of it is exactly that.

Best estimates for iatrogenic harm indicate that it can be much more tragic than just a waste of time. It may be the third leading cause of death.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iatrogenesis#Incidence_and_importance

Obviously you didn't read the article and/or didn't comprehend the concept of latrogenesis. A wikipedia entry isn't a mayo study btw.

82   bob2356   ignore (5)   2014 Apr 3, 3:37am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

errc says

You gals are putting a lot of words in my mouth.

errc says

armed with proper knowledge of nutrition, one could likely avoid the doctor, dentist, and optimoligist, indefinitely

These aren't your words?

83   edvard2   ignore (1)   2014 Apr 3, 3:38am     ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag      

Robert Sproul says

This Mayo study indicates that 40-60% of it is exactly that.

Best estimates for iatrogenic harm indicate that it can be much more tragic than just a waste of time. It may be the third leading cause of death.

Again- you want to play armchair doctor, go for it. Be my guest. That doesn't mean you are right. I can't wait for the direction this topic will likely go. Next thing I am sure will come will be that it turns out we were wrong about oxygen all along. Turns out we actually breathe carbon dioxide.... I read it in a medical journal so it must be true and hence I am a genius now.

84   edvard2   ignore (1)   2014 Apr 3, 3:43am     ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag      

errc says

You gals are putting a lot of words in my mouth.

Oddly enough, you both went on to agree with me anyways.

The point is, without fixing ones diet, its more or less impossible to fix ones health.

Now, I'm certain we will disagree as to what proper nutrition looks like, but my position is still the same.

That more than half of all instances and occurances of adverse health can be resolved thru proper nutrtion.

What % of health care related events do you suppose are rooted in malnutrition?

No.... but if it makes you feel better to think that way, go for it. Your position seems to be- and you have the opportunity to correct us if we're wrong- is that nutrition can prevent people from having to go to the doctor. I recall an earlier post where this same general commentary was being made and in that case too you seemed to be suggesting that people didn't actually really need medical care... was that correct or was I imagining things?

Now- addressing your comments about nutrition and health. Sure- diet plays a part in health and the increase or decrease in the need for medical care. But its not the one and only contributing factor. As was previously mentioned, a significant factor to future health issues are tied to environmental exposures to chemicals, radiation, and so on, none of which a diet will prevent that exposure.

85   anonymous   ignore (null)   2014 Apr 3, 4:07am     ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag      

One could likely avoid,,,,

To clarify, I'm claiming that we could halve our "need" for health care services with proper nutrition. That over half of all the instances where someone thinks they need the doctor, could be solved simply with proper nutrition and diet.

The crap people consume really does wreak that much havoc on the body, the mind and mental health, included.

How many people attempt an elimination diet , prior to succumbing to the doctor and begging for drugs as remedy?

86   edvard2   ignore (1)   2014 Apr 3, 4:35am     ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag      

errc says

To clarify, I'm claiming that we could halve our "need" for health care services with proper nutrition. That over half of all the instances where someone thinks they need the doctor, could be solved simply with proper nutrition and diet.

The crap people consume really does wreak that much havoc on the body, the mind and mental health, included.

How many people attempt an elimination diet , prior to succumbing to the doctor and begging for drugs as remedy?

Ok, understood. But this is simply your opinion, which is fine. That said, could the need for healthcare be halved by proper nutrition? That's a sort of pie-in-the-sky statement. There are some ethnic groups in third world countries who actually have crappy diets ( lot of fat via dairy and meat) who have longer life expectancies than the US for example)

But as far as "begging for drugs", I think that's a rather generalized statement. If a person is sick, has a medical abnormality, is in need of a procedure or whatnot, then they should go see a doctor. Does that mean they're begging for drugs? Most people have no clue about medications, which is why you see a doctor to begin with. The doctor will make a call- most of the time a call that doesn't require medication. But if there is a medication that serves to correct whatever ailment that person has then there's nothing wrong with prescribing to that. More often then not a doctor would likely recommend something like lifestyle changes- like avoiding stress, eating better, quitting smoking and whatnot. But sometimes medication is a useful tool just as other forms of treatment.

87   anonymous   ignore (null)   2014 Apr 3, 5:04am     ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag      

A lot of fat via meat is by no means a crappy diet. Animal fats and proteins are actually the basis for the most healthful of dietary input

Not so long ago, that was the cornerstone of the human diet. We sorta got away from that and added all the bad carbohydrates (grains,breads, cereals, and all the sugars). Adding all that crap to our diets has led to massive increase in the "need" for all this "health" "care"

88   edvard2   ignore (1)   2014 Apr 3, 5:36am     ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag      

errc says

Not so long ago, that was the cornerstone of the human diet. We sorta got away from that and added all the bad carbohydrates (grains,breads, cereals, and all the sugars). Adding all that crap to our diets has led to massive increase in the "need" for all this "health" "care"

Nothing wrong with grains, bread, and carbohydrates either. Grain is one of the most ancient of foods. But I digress, we're now
picking over the crumbs at this point. I get your points about a healthy diet and agree that a better diet can lead to better health.

But I also don't exactly buy that this alone is a remedy for what ailments and future diseases happen to a person in their lives. Like anything else its about common sense. If you get sick... go to the doctor. Its that simple.

89   Robert Sproul   ignore (0)   2014 Apr 3, 8:01am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

edvard2 says

agree that a better diet can lead to better health.

I think you underestimate the effect of the average American diet of highly processed (nutrient depleted), high sodium, over-sweetened or artificially sweetened, "food".
Americans die of self inflicted lifestyle diseases (heart disease, diabetes, stroke, cancers) brought about by the induced overconsumption of these products. Diseases that they fruitlessly try to manage with pharmaceutical solutions.
70% of Americans are overweight for fucks sake.
1 in 10 deaths may be related to just the overconsumption of salt.

edvard2 says

If you get sick... go to the doctor. Its that simple.

And he will tell you to lose weight, eat a balanced diet, and get some exercise……..and then prescribe some toxic statin/beta blocker cocktail, or maybe even some grotesque bariatric surgery, when you don't.

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