patrick.net

List o' evils in the United States, in no particular order:

1) Crime and Corruption
2) The Economy
3) Banker Bailouts
4) Abortion
5) Resource and Climate Problems
6) High Consumer, Government, and Corporate Debt

What most conservatives see when they read this list:

1) ...
4) ABORTION
5) blah blah...

Every liberal I talk to is deeply concerned about supporting the spread of homosexuality to every possible corner of the world.

In contrast, my conservative friends base their vote on a careful weighing of multiple issues, from abortion to abortion.

FortWayne says

If you watch the news even badly lately, you'll notice a pattern. Liberals are more concerned about gays in Russia, than about economy, well being, or stability of an American economy.

Since when is it a competition? Can't one be concerned about both human rights and the economy?

By the way, it says a lot about conservatives that they don't give a rat's butt about human rights around the world. There are some things that decent people just care about.

Liberals are all about robbing Peter and fucking Paul in the ass.

Conservatives are all about making sure Peter remains CEO and making sure Paul does not get an abortion.

Ceffer says

and fucking Paul in the ass

Shouldn't Paul get paid for his services?

What the liberal mutts fail to understand is that debt continues in perpetuity.

It WILL be the demise of this country.

Rome was ended by debt/inflation (inflation is a feeble attempt to handle debt) . At the beginning of their inflation their coins contained 95% silver at the end .5% silver. At one point only 1 of 26 emperors died of natural causes in one of the centuries of their existence, the rest died with their boots/sandals? on.

Germany was ended by debt/inflation following WW1 and going into WW2.

Zimbabwe will be ended by the debt/inflation that they got into from their civil war.

Argentina went to war because of the 600% inflation which was an attempt to handle their debt

The debt created by L fucking BJ in the Vietnam war created inflation that forced the US to go off the gold standard. The debt since 1971 will be the END of this country.

indigenous says

The debt since 1971 will be the END of this country.

That's odd, your chart shows the debt pretty much flat line 1945 to 1980 or so. then really heading up fast starting in 1981. What the heck happened in 1981? Oh now I remember, tax cuts. Damn that liberal nut president who cut taxes in 1981. What the heck was his name?

bob2356 says

Damn that liberal nut president who cut taxes in 1981. What the heck was his name?

Yup Reagan increased spending as well. Actually Clinton did a better job albeit with a lot of help from Gingrich. Either way it started in 1971 and went ballistic under Bush 43.

Not one of them is truly financially conservative... Maybe Ike was the most financially conservative of the most recent?

Debt doesn't even make El HydroCabron's list?

Debt will always be more than it has been historically.

epitaph says

Debt will always be more than it has been historically.

Not true from 1776 to 1912

indigenous says

Germany was ended by debt/inflation following WW1 and going into WW2.

Funny, I thought there was still a country in Europe named Germany.

indigenous says

What the liberal mutts fail to understand is that debt continues in perpetuity.

It WILL be the demise of this country.

Liberals want to turn the US into the next Greece. And when that happens, they will still blame Bush and demand even still higher tax rates to support their deadbeat clientele.

bob2356 says

What the heck happened in 1981?

We started importing many more things that we used to make ourselves. It's pretty much been all downhill since then.

indigenous says

What the liberal mutts fail to understand is that debt continues in perpetuity.

How to eliminate our national debt

We liberals aren't the reason the national debt is out of control.

epitaph says

Debt will always be more than it has been historically.

Unless you adopt "liberal mutt" plans like the one above.

tatupu70 says

indigenous says

Germany was ended by debt/inflation following WW1 and going into WW2.

Funny, I thought there was still a country in Europe named Germany.

So you mean the land is still there? The policies are not the same, they have not been in a war for quite some time...

indigenous says

So you mean the land is still there? The policies are not the same, they have not been in a war for quite some time...

No, I mean there is a country called Germany. Same as there was before WWI. How exactly did it "end"?

zzyzzx says

ndigenous says

What the liberal mutts fail to understand is that debt continues in perpetuity.

It WILL be the demise of this country.

Liberals want to turn the US into the next Greece. And when that happens, they will still blame Bush and demand even still higher tax rates to support their deadbeat clientele

We have a 100 trillion in debt if you include unfunded liabilities.

There is NO WAY we are going to repay that.

The progressives are just making noise that the conservatives then use as a feedback loop.

I was reading an article about the fall of Rome. The trouble was in their 3rd century of existence and it was caused by war that then caused inflation to the point of prices going up 1000%. When the invadors came into the country the Romans (the ones who were still there) regarded them as liberators. In that century 1 out of 26 emperors died of natural causes.

It is like deja vu all over again...

indigenous says

We have a 100 trillion in debt if you include unfunded liabilities.

An unfunded liability is NOT debt. It's not debt until the expense has been incurred.

Dan8267 says

indigenous says

What the liberal mutts fail to understand is that debt continues in perpetuity.

How to eliminate our national debt

We liberals aren't the reason the national debt is out of control.

Yes but wars theoretically are not permanent. Not that I'm a Republican.

You forget the magic of compounded interest brought to us by FDR, LBJ, and now Obama. That has more to do with the debt than the wars.

indigenous says

You forget the magic of compounded interest brought to us by FDR, LBJ, and now Obama. That has more to do with the debt than the wars.

You live in an alternate universe. Take a look at who is responsible for the debt again.

tatupu70 says

indigenous says

You forget the magic of compounded interest brought to us by FDR, LBJ, and now Obama. That has more to do with the debt than the wars.

You live in an alternate universe. Take a look at who is responsible for the debt again.

Tat

Putting this as kindly as I can, you don't know that you don't know. You are unaware of when, where, context, or what

FortWayne says

If you watch the news even badly lately, you'll notice a pattern. Liberals
are more concerned about gays in Russia, than about economy, well being, or
stability of an American economy.

If you watch the FOX news, yeah.

What a dumb premise; I'm surprised this thread got any action.

FortWayne says

If you watch the news even badly lately, you'll notice a pattern. Liberals are more concerned about gays in Russia, than about economy, well being, or stability of an American economy.

We've had this conversation before but I guess we're going to have it again.

The US and its constitution were created so that all people, no matter what their religion, race, sex, or sexual orientation- basically ALL of us as Americans- are entitled to the same basic human rights. Any idea or notion that these rights don't apply to all is not only UN-patriotic, but contrary to the US constitution, who's rights my relatives in multiple wars fought to maintain and honor. Enough of the nonsense.

zzyzzx says

Both of my cars are made in Michigan, one in Lansing, and one in Wayne. Were were your cars made? Clinton Signed NAFTA. No one political party is to blame for our crappy free trade agreements. Even you know that.

We now live in a global economy and most any car you drive today is made out of a combination of global components. Ironically we now export MORE Japanese cars, made right here in the US, than we import from Japan. We also export engines, transmissions, and other automotive components not only to Japan, but to Germany, the UK, and other various countries whom have their own automotive industries. My Dad's Toyota truck is a total of 89% domestically produced content and the last time I checked, Toyota Tundras were either the single "Most American" made trucks or close to the top of that list.

As of now not only do we produce cars and trucks for the Big Three, but also for BMW, Mercedes, Nissan, Honda, Toyota, Kia, Hyundai, VW, Lexus... I think that just about covers it. So the bottom line... we produce a LOT of cars and a far greater variety of them than ever before, mainly because we are considered the most efficient and cost-effective manufacturing country in the world.

edvard2 says

We've had this conversation before but I guess we're going to have it again.

The US and its constitution were created so that all people, no matter what their religion, race, sex, or sexual orientation- basically ALL of us as Americans- are entitled to the same basic human rights. Any idea or notion that these rights don't apply to all is not only UN-patriotic, but contrary to the US constitution, who's rights my relatives in multiple wars fought to maintain and honor. Enough of the nonsense.

Preferential treatment is not equal treatment.

edvard2 says

We now live in a global economy and most any car you drive today is made out of a combination of global components. Ironically we now export MORE Japanese cars, made right here in the US, than we import from Japan

I want statistics on this. I mean, there is no such thing as a Lexus, Scion, or Mazda that is currently Made in USA. Our tiny exports don't make up for that.

zzyzzx says

Preferential treatment is not equal treatment.

Who said a damned thing about preferential treatment? Way to take something ridiculously out of context.

zzyzzx says

I want statistics on this. I mean, there is no such thing as a Lexus, Scion, or Mazda that is currently Made in USA. Our tiny exports don't make up for that.

Lexus ( Toyota motor Corp) will start producing sedans in their Kentucky plant next year. Mazda only recently pulled production from the US, but what was mainly due to their relationship with Ford and how that Ford decided to cut them loose. Scion is another Toyota brand that as you correctly pointed out isn't made in the US. It also wasn't a brand I mentioned above.

As of this writing, the Top 10 Most American-made cars in the US ( in terms of actual domestically produced content are:

10: Toyota Sienna: 75%
9: Toyota Camry: 75% ( also the best-selling car in the US)
8: Ford F-150: 75%
7: Dodge Avenger: 75%
6: Honda Crosstour: 75%
5: Honda Oddessy: 75%
4: Chevy Traverse: 77%
3: Toyota Avalob: 80%
2: Chevy Express Van: 80%
1: Ford Expedition: 80%
Source: http://www.thestreet.com/story/11968700/11/10-most-american-made-cars-of-2013.html

As seen, almost half of that list was comprised surprisingly of Japanese automakers

sbh says

The only avenue of authentic discontent is in affirmative action, and I'm sympathetic on that one, but when it comes to extending marriage rights to gay people, conservatives are just trying to find something to cry about. It's really gutless.

I agree. What's more, I find these debates that come on this and other sites to be pretty sad. Sad that we are actually having a debate about what should be very obvious and clear cut. We are talking about basic rights for a cross segment of the US population. There's very few times in a debate where there is truly only one correct answer and this happens to be one of those times.

indigenous says

Yes but wars theoretically are not permanent. Not that I'm a Republican.

You forget the magic of compounded interest brought to us by FDR, LBJ, and now Obama. That has more to do with the debt than the wars.

Unfortunately, war in the U.S. for the past 70 years has been permanent by design. The military industrial complex that President Eisenhower warned about creates instability and war and harms U.S. security interest in order to guarantee permanent and increasing revenue streams to the war profiteering industry.

Debt is the result of not being able to pay for all these wars and their aftermath. The cost of a war does not stop with the last bullet fired. It stops no sooner than when the last veteran dies of old age. The health care costs for those veterans tend to hit maximum about fifty years after the war ends. To put that in perspective, most of the health care costs for the Vietnam War are just now being realized.

As for the "magic" of compound interest, that is taken into account by my plan. Paying off debt early is the best way to minimize its cost.

Finally, imagine how much better the entire world's economy would be if the wealth wasted in destructive enterprises like war had instead been channeled into productive enterprises like infrastructure, science, and technology. We'd have pollution-free factories, hotels on the moon, and personal maglift vehicles already.

sbh says

you just claim that their inclusion robs you of something, when absolutely nothing in your world is altered except the way you feel about it

Minority Quotas rob some people of something.

edvard2 says

As of this writing, the Top 10 Most American-made cars in the US ( in terms of actual domestically produced content are:

10: Toyota Sienna: 75%

9: Toyota Camry: 75% ( also the best-selling car in the US)

8: Ford F-150: 75%

7: Dodge Avenger: 75%

6: Honda Crosstour: 75%

5: Honda Oddessy: 75%

4: Chevy Traverse: 77%

3: Toyota Avalob: 80%

2: Chevy Express Van: 80%

1: Ford Expedition: 80%

Source: http://www.thestreet.com/story/11968700/11/10-most-american-made-cars-of-2013.html

As seen, almost half of that list was comprised surprisingly of Japanese automakers

How many of these are exported and in what quantities, and how does that compare to Japanese imports to the US? You never answered that since, presumably even you know that we import way more from Japan then we export (to anyone).

Dan8267 says

As for the "magic" of compound interest, that is taken into account by my plan. Paying off debt early is the best way to minimize its cost.

where is that?

Dan8267 says

Finally, imagine how much better the entire world's economy would be if the wealth wasted in destructive enterprises like war had instead been channeled into productive enterprises like infrastructure, science, and technology. We'd have pollution-free factories, hotels on the moon, and personal maglift vehicles already.

Agreed

except it is handy when threatened in WW2 (not that that was not contrived)

Last night on 60 minutes one of the war mongers was selling us on how much we needed the x-35 because the Russians and Chinese had something similar, which is quite cogent, not sure what the disposition should be.

Automan Empire says

FortWayne says

If you watch the news even badly lately, you'll notice a pattern. Liberals

are more concerned about gays in Russia, than about economy, well being, or

stability of an American economy.

If you watch the FOX news, yeah.

What a dumb premise; I'm surprised this thread got any action.

No, that's not Fox. That's National Barack Channel (NBC) and ABC (American Barack Channel).

Liberals are too busy distracting us all with gays in Russia and fictitious wars on women. They like to look past the problems at home, and just complain about made up problems elsewhere.

sbh says

Yeah, but that's a distinction that can never be resolved if you just want to
deny rights to other people: you just claim that their inclusion robs you of
something, when absolutely nothing in your world is altered except the way you
feel about it.

What is robbed is the liberal desire to divorce marriage from child procreation and increase dependency on government with single parent homes. The ONLY reason the State is involved in the marriage business in the first place is to help support family formation to raise the next generation of humanity and tax payers to prop up our Ponzi Scheme entitlements.

And got to laugh how you accuse Conservatives of being "obssessed" with gay marriage when all they are trying to do is push back against the 24/7 cultural and political pressure to expand marriage to a tiny percentage of our population who is gay, and a smaller percentage of gay couples who even want monogamous marriage, and even smaller percentage who want to adopt or try some sort of surrogate child creation.

The State should have no interest in any person's individual sexual choices unless we are talking about bringing children into the mix. And if the State is given an equal choice between a hetero and gay couple to adopt a child - I think it is a total no-brainer that the State should favor the hetero couple if all things are equal.

Just wait until the gay adovocates and Democrats starts arguing that the State (or private adoption agencies) shouldn't be able to discriminate against gay adoptive couples.

href="http://patrick.net/?p=1238457&c=1053411#comment-1053411">zzyzzx says

How many of these are exported and in what quantities, and how does that compare to Japanese imports to the US? You never answered that since, presumably even you know that we import way more from Japan then we export (to anyone).

http://www.usatoday.com/story/driveon/2014/01/28/honda-exports/4956205/
There you go. That's just Honda alone and represents over 100,000 cars in one year.

Here's another link: Our exports in terms of Japanese branded cars has almost doubled in a very short time period: http://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/detroits-rivals-using-america-base-car-exports-f8C11266338

zzyzzx says

Minority Quotas rob some people of something.

You are seriously still trying to argue about this? FortWayne says

Liberals are too busy distracting us all with gays in Russia and fictitious wars on women. They like to look past the problems at home, and just complain about made up problems elsewhere.

WTF are you talking about.... "Made-up" problems? When one group of the population is denied the same rights as everyone else then that isn't a "Made up problem".

Let me ask you a very direct and basic question: Do you believe in the US Constitution and what it stands for?

Oh- and now I see that those who are arguing about this are trying to suggest that since the population in question is small that somehow this is less important? WEAK.

FortWayne says

No, that's not Fox. That's National Barack Channel (NBC) and ABC (American
Barack Channel).

Liberals are too busy distracting us all with gays in Russia and fictitious
wars on women.

Excuse me, but NBC and ABC do NOT say that "Liberals only care about gay marriage. Now back to you, Richard Simmons at the county recorder's office." As for the "war on Christmas," there is no example of liberals pushing for this, but just look at the comments in any article about Sandra Fluke if you want to see the Republican War against Women.

indigenous says

Dan8267 says

As for the "magic" of compound interest, that is taken into account by my plan. Paying off debt early is the best way to minimize its cost.

where is that?

Dan8267 says

we would eliminate the debt by 2072

Check the spreadsheet. It includes interest on the debt based on empirical data.

Automan Empire says

FortWayne says

No, that's not Fox. That's National Barack Channel (NBC) and ABC (American
Barack Channel).

Liberals are too busy distracting us all with gays in Russia and fictitious
wars on women.

Excuse me, but NBC and ABC do NOT say that "Liberals only care about gay marriage. Now back to you, Richard Simmons at the county recorder's office." As for the "war on Christmas," there is no example of liberals pushing for this, but just look at the comments in any article about Sandra Fluke if you want to see the Republican War against Women.

97% of alimony goes from men to women. 80% of custody of children goes to women and people are forced to pay-undert threat of jail-upto 50k a month in child support-with absolutely no say in how the children are raised and how the money is spent. A man saying he doesn't want to pay for birth control is now considered war on women. When was there a war on women?? Where is the planned parenthood equivalent for poor men??

lostand confused says

A man saying he doesn't want to pay for birth control is now considered war on
women. When was there a war on women?? Where si the planned parenthood
equivalent for poor men??

If a person dares to disagree with Liberal policy prescriptions, we are "waging war" on people and want to see people suffer and die..........to protect our profits.

Not an ounce of nuance or complex thinking with Liberals. There are only liberal solutions, everything else is raaacist or evil war mongering.

It doesn't matter if we all want largely the same goals, the fact that Conservatives believe there are different and better ways to get to the same goals is total heresy (or completely alien) with the group-think zombies on the Liberal plantation.

So folks like Dan and the other Libs on this forum REALLY BELIEVE in the very worst in Conservative motives and it becomes impossible to have a remotely intelligent exchange of ideas to solve common problems.

This isn't an issue about conservatives and liberals. Gay rights are not a liberal or conservative issue. Its a constitutional rights issue. That's it. That somehow this particular thing got politicized is beyond my understanding because there's few things that are as absolutely cut and dry as this is: As I previously mentioned the rights defined and outlined by our constitution is where the conversation revolves around and in that case there's the answer: US citizens of all backgrounds are entitled to the same status and rights. That's it. If anyone disagrees with this then they should really think about what that means and what our country was founded upon.

sbh says

The only robbery is done to your ability to deny gay people the right to sit
beside you on the bus. The rest is merely question begging and religious
intolerance. As to child procreation, both my wife and I are atheists and
childless by choice our entire lives as individuals and as a LEGAL married
couple.

First - I don't want anyone to sit on the back of the bus. You are just making shit up. I don't care at all what consenting adults do to each other if they are not harming anyone else. I think monogamy is good for all socieities as it keeps the sex ratio in balance and keeps social harmony where we don't have one sex outnumbered competing for a dwindling number of suiters like we see in violent tribal and polygamous cultures. Therefore I am all for the State to help foster monogamy in the gay community with Civil Unions to help pool their finances and protect inheritances etc.

I think marriage is different as it is primarily about the propogation of the species. There are no absolutes in life and I am sure you will provide plenty of anecdotes, but over 80% of US marriages procreate. Now what percentage of gay marriages procreate?

The ONLY reason the State is involved in the marriage business is to help support families to raise children to become future tax payers and not be a burden on our society.

Regarding gay adoption or examples of gays raising children. I have never said that I am worried that gay men will turn into pedophiles and rape their children. You are just making shit up again or confusing me for someone else. I am worried that children will be robbed of the two distinct types of biological/psychological nurturing found in the different sexes. My wife can provide my daughter emotional support and guidance based on my wife's life experiences and biology that I can't as easily. Whereas I can provide my son with support that my wife has no experience, ability or desire.

This is a big deal unless you are now going to say with all of your experience raising children that there are no inate gender difference.

I am also worried that we will continue to see a skyrocketing increase in the out of wedlock birthrate (and guaranteed poverty) in hetero couples as our culture and laws continues to divorce marriage from child creation.