patrick.net

I guess you can also say patrick.net has been ahead on the information curve all along.

Only 14% of middle-class folks can afford a house, but yet the city is teeming with criminals and the entitled. Hmmm, that's probably where all the middle class' money goes.

I just love paying for everybody else's stuff while I do without.

What the article doesn't address is that the "affordable" houses/condos/etc(I think it's lumping everything together) in those areas are so remote that they require travel to those areas. I can "afford" a house in the San Francisco Bay Area if I live just on the outskirts of Sacramento. What a deal!

No one is forced to live in one of the most expensive place on the planet.

Most software developers can work remotely from Ohio.

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Comptroller says

You can buy a house in Detroit for $500. Even an ASSHOLE! can afford one.

An ASSHOLE is too smart to live in Detroit. He'll just move to the Bay Area and try to qualify for mortgage he can't afford after he sends the offer for a house that he can't afford. http://patrick.net/?p=1230545

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Comptroller says

You can buy a house in Detroit for $500. Even an ASSHOLE! can afford one.

But can an ASSHOLE! afford a Gatling which is necessary for survival in the wonderful Detroit?

This isn't a surprise really. Stories like these were rampant during the last bubble and even before. To me, perhaps there needs to be a different scale when it comes to "who" is middle class from one area to another. A good example: Myself. We both have fairly high incomes. If we lived in say- North Carolina- and made what we made, we would probably be able to buy a mansion, own two luxury cars, and go on exotic vacations all the time. Here in the Bay Area that high income allows us a modest 3 bedroom house, 2 modest cars... basically the trappings of a typical middle class family because in order to live like a middle class family here you need an upper level income. I would say what passes for middle class elsewhere in the country is more like the working class in the BA.

edvard2 says

This isn't a surprise really. Stories like these were rampant during the last bubble and even before. To me, perhaps there needs to be a different scale when it comes to "who" is middle class from one area to another. A good example: Myself. We both have fairly high incomes. If we lived in say- North Carolina- and made what we made, we would probably be able to buy a mansion, own two luxury cars, and go on exotic vacations all the time. Here in the Bay Area that high income allows us a modest 3 bedroom house, 2 modest cars... basically the trappings of a typical middle class family because in order to live like a middle class family here you need an upper level income. I would say what passes for middle class elsewhere in the country is more like the working class in the BA.

Ah, the wonderful Bay Area... The best of both worlds: live as a working class, get taxed as a high income household.

Straw Man says

Ah, the wonderful Bay Area... The best of both worlds: live as a working class, get taxed as a high income household.

Never seen anyone put it that way, but that's very very accurate observation. Sure applies in LA area too.

It is amazing how much savings you accumulate out of CA.

Heraclitusstudent says

No one is forced to live in one of the most expensive place on the planet.

Most software developers can work remotely from Ohio.

Not sure how the two statements are related unless you're saying a lot of software developers are based in SF Bay area.

If you don't love it here, you'll move. If all you want in life is a Costco and a house, you're paying way too much for that in San Francisco.

Straw Man says

But can an ASSHOLE! afford a Gatling which is necessary for survival in the wonderful Detroit?

Probably. At least when compared to SF area rent, a gatling gun can be bought for maybe only a month or two of rent savings. I really don't want to Google "gatling gun cost".

FunTime says

If you don't love it here, you'll move. If all you want in life is a Costco
and a house, you're paying way too much for that in San Francisco.

No matter what you want, you're probably paying too much in San Francisco...

tatupu70 says

FunTime says

If you don't love it here, you'll move. If all you want in life is a Costco

and a house, you're paying way too much for that in San Francisco.

No matter what you want, you're probably paying too much in San Francisco...

Unless granny willed you your house. In that case you get the best of all worlds! Of course you're probably also an ASSHOLE!

Straw Man says

Ah, the wonderful Bay Area... The best of both worlds: live as a working class, get taxed as a high income household.

I fought with the idea of moving out of state for years. It was very tempting: If all I did was rent cheap and save big, I could have moved to NC/TX/SC/TN/GA... or some other cheaper state and bought a house for cash and be done with it.

The thing is that in the end... I really like it here. Nice weather, and one of the few places where within 2 hours you can be at the beach, snow covered mountains,the desert, wine country, and so on. That and this area is simply very job-rich. The job situation is what made the decision. I've never had a problem finding one rather quick here, the pay is good, and you can get involved with a lot of cutting-edge type businesses easily.

The other thing is that I visited some of these alternative cities that are often mentioned as places for Californians and Northeasterners to "escape" to. Truth be known, after visiting some of those places, some were pretty boring. For example: Raleigh Durham NC. Its seemingly always touted as this wonderful alternative. Yet I went and the downtown was meh, the food was meh, and once you left the small city center it turned into generic urban sprawl quickly. And in addition, the much-touted tech triangle was a tiny fraction of the size of Silicon Valley. The only advantage to Raleigh to me was that housing is cheaper. I came away with the feeling that most people moving there cared less about the area itself and more about getting a house in which to raise a family in and be close to familiar shopping malls.

Whether I'll stay here forever is still to be debated. The truth is that if I had enough in retirement, sold the house, and had a choice, Hawaii is a hell of a lot nicer IMHO. I mean- its literally paradise.

Heraclitusstudent says

No one is forced to live in one of the most expensive place on the planet.

Most software developers can work remotely from Ohio.

Or Bangalore...

zzyzzx says

I really don't want to Google "gatling gun cost".

It's too late: you've already typed it. ;)

PS. Full-auto transferable M-16 costs about $15K. So no, you probably can't buy a Gatling from two-month savings of Bay Area rent.

Why does so much of the press (well, ok, Patrick.net) focus on San Francisco real estate? It seems to get a disproportionate amount of attention for its size and population and the number of people who would want to live there.

Also, like I tell people here around Seattle, who keep touting the "exceptionalism of The City", it seems to be based on outdated notions from back 20 years ago. Right now every mall in America has an espresso bar. There is the web which means every TV set is an "art film house".

There is low cost jet travel like Southwest if you want fly in for a day and see a museum. People everywhere have the relaxed sophisticated attitudes that were only in the cities decades ago, because of social media.

And so on...I can travel to remote cities in Eastern Washington, and the feel of the place is little different from the "sophisticated" coast!

San Diego has gotten insane! It used to substantially trail the Bay Area, then it just about evened up with it in the last bubble, and has bubbled up again. Just check out the million dollar bungalows west of I-5 in Encinitas, my old home town. Yess, the climate is nice, and the laid back vibe OK, but it gets to be old hat after a while, and you are still stuck with a ridiculous mortgage for a shack.

edvard2 says

I fought with the idea of moving out of state for years. It was very tempting: If all I did was rent cheap and save big, I could have moved to NC/TX/SC/TN/GA... or some other cheaper state and bought a house for cash and be done with it.

I feel the same way. CA is still a very good place, sure we have problems... but everyone else does too. And their problems are usually bigger.

I do own a property in Indiana, but will probably sell it. Absentee management was just a stupid mistake. That place is nice only a couple of month out of the year, and a whole lot of nothing everywhere. While here we have great weather year around, makes a difference when one is getting old and needs to keep warm.

Straw Man says

PS. Full-auto transferable M-16 costs about $15K. So no, you probably can't buy a Gatling from two-month savings of Bay Area rent.

You can build you one for a lot less if you know where to get the parts. They are not that complicated.

FortWayne says

I feel the same way. CA is still a very good place, sure we have problems... but everyone else does too. And their problems are usually bigger.

I do own a property in Indiana, but will probably sell it. Absentee management was just a stupid mistake. That place is nice only a couple of month out of the year, and a whole lot of nothing everywhere. While here we have great weather year around, makes a difference when one is getting old and needs to keep warm.

Are you from CA or somewhere else? I think another part of my decision is that I really did grow up in the middle of nowhere. As in we had a couple of large deep freezers because going to the grocery store meant a 45 minute drive and so we didn't want to have to go back frequently. Most of our entertainment was actually from working in the yard. We had a huge 15 acre yard which took days to mow, and when I mean mow, it was actually a tractor with a "bush hog" attachment.

We had no TV to speak of. Instead we had a HUGE antenna on the roof which on a good day picked up two stations: PBS and ABC. That was it. I was bussed in with the other "Country kids" to school. Some of those kids had cable so they were a lot more informed on various popular things.

So to me moving to a big city was a HUGE change. I was totally used to living in the middle of nowhere. So I am probably better equipped to do that if I so chose. Additionally many I've talked to who are from larger metros have this concern over rural areas and the "Types of people" who live there. Especially southerners. That's where I grew up and yeah, I am sure someone from SF would have to make some big adjustments, but we always got along fine with everyone even though we were more liberal.

And so when I was debating about whether to stay in Cali or move somewhere else, I was less concerned about being in the middle of nowhere ( been there, done that) and more about what I would actually do for a living when I did. I also have to admit the Bay Area has me totally spoiled. I've been here long enough to where "winter" is now cold to me versus when I first moved here and January felt balmy and warm compared to where I had come from.

John Bailo says

Why does so much of the press (well, ok, Patrick.net) focus on San Francisco real estate?

That's a good question. SF is only a small part of the overall Bay Area. As one of those "East Bay People", to me SF might as well be in another country. Its way the hell more expensive in every way compared to what its like just 9 miles across the bay bridge. Yet people go on and on about it. I really have never liked SF that much. I guess that leaves more room for those who do like it then.

FortWayne says

Straw Man says

PS. Full-auto transferable M-16 costs about $15K. So no, you probably can't buy a Gatling from two-month savings of Bay Area rent.

You can build you one for a lot less if you know where to get the parts. They are not that complicated.

It's not about difficulty, it's about legality. A SMG can be built for peanuts from scrap metal.

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Comptroller says

They're only unaffordable if you're an ASSHOLE!

Guilty as charged!

Straw Man says

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Comptroller says

You can buy a house in Detroit for $500. Even an ASSHOLE! can afford one.

But can an ASSHOLE! afford a Gatling which is necessary for survival in the wonderful Detroit?

No but he CAN afford a Ma Deuce or two. Not as cool as a Minigun but gets the job done.

edvard2 says

So to me moving to a big city was a HUGE change. I was totally used to living in the middle of nowhere. So I am probably better equipped to do that if I so chose.

I'm in Cali now, but we moved here from IN. Cities have a lot more opportunities for young adults. Out in the country there are very few opportunities, you spend most of your time surviving and farming. We thought about moving back, but it's just too cold, too desolate, too little to do outside survival, and kids would probably never visit...

FortWayne says

I'm in Cali now, but we moved here from IN. Cities have a lot more opportunities for young adults. Out in the country there are very few opportunities, you spend most of your time surviving and farming. We thought about moving back, but it's just too cold, too desolate, too little to do outside survival, and kids would probably never visit...

You can live wherever you like, obviously, but I'm pretty sure they have cities in IN as well.

I have been to Indiana when I lived in the South. Let's just say its not my favorite place in the world. Its pretty bad when someone from another Southern state drive through and thinks to themselves: " Who in the heck would live here?"

That said, I have heard Indianapolis is surprisingly nice.

tatupu70 says

FortWayne says

I'm in Cali now, but we moved here from IN. Cities have a lot more opportunities for young adults. Out in the country there are very few opportunities, you spend most of your time surviving and farming. We thought about moving back, but it's just too cold, too desolate, too little to do outside survival, and kids would probably never visit...

You can live wherever you like, obviously, but I'm pretty sure they have cities in IN as well.

Yes, like this one:

http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Gary-Indiana.html

New Renter says

Yes, like this one:

http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Gary-Indiana.html

Of all the cities in Indiana, that wouldn't be my first choice, but hey--go for it.

tatupu70 says

New Renter says

Yes, like this one:

http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Gary-Indiana.html

Of all the cities in Indiana, that wouldn't be my first choice, but hey--go for it.

Not my first choice either - unless I was this guy:

Is Detroit really that bad?

The 5 Best Detroit Neighborhoods

http://www.movoto.com/blog/homeownership/the-5-best-detroit-neighborhoods/

Checking one of those five out, Indian Village...WOW...look at what $180K gets you:

Bedrooms:4 beds
Bathrooms:4 baths
Single Family:3,072 sq ft
Lot:0.25 acres

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2460-Seminole-St-Detroit-MI-48214/88448145_zpid/

John Bailo says

Is Detroit really that bad?

The 5 Best Detroit Neighborhoods

http://www.movoto.com/blog/homeownership/the-5-best-detroit-neighborhoods/

Checking one of those five out, Indian Village...WOW...look at what $180K gets you:

Bedrooms:4 beds

Bathrooms:4 baths

Single Family:3,072 sq ft

Lot:0.25 acres

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2460-Seminole-St-Detroit-MI-48214/88448145_zpid/

I can't really comment on living there, but that is a nice house :-)

The only sucker in the Midwest is taxes. On the Detroit property above, look at the taxes. The taxes are a wash when compared to CA's expensive houses-but you do end up with a much , much lower mortgage. often times, in today's lower interest rates world , the mortgage and property taxes may be equal. But there is something about owning something free and clear in a few years. I think TX is pretty much the same?

2012 $7,090
2011 $7,090 -
2010 $8,314 -

hIbg says

John Bailo says

Is Detroit really that bad?

The 5 Best Detroit Neighborhoods

http://www.movoto.com/blog/homeownership/the-5-best-detroit-neighborhoods/

Checking one of those five out, Indian Village...WOW...look at what $180K gets you:

Bedrooms:4 beds

Bathrooms:4 baths

Single Family:3,072 sq ft

Lot:0.25 acres

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2460-Seminole-St-Detroit-MI-48214/88448145_zpid/

I can't really comment on living there, but that is a nice house :-)

With a basement...

sigh.

edvard2 says

That said, I have heard Indianapolis is surprisingly nice.

That was not my experience during a couple of nearly week-long business trips. Understand that's not saying much. I did almost catch The Melvins there, though!

Heraclitusstudent says

Most software developers can work remotely from Ohio.

Most companies do not hire software engineers for remote work and where they do they usually opt for employees living in emerging countries where they can pay 1/5th what they have to in America.

drew_eckhardt says

Heraclitusstudent says

Most software developers can work remotely from Ohio.

Most companies do not hire software engineers for remote work and

You get hired to work in a specific office, and once people like you and rely on you, you relocate and work remote.

John Bailo says

Is Detroit really that bad?

The 5 Best Detroit Neighborhoods

When you hit bottom .. you have nothing to lose.. therefore Detroit might just

try the unthinkable... get rid of the Govt, Big Unions, implement a Pro Business

Growth Policy and perhaps become a beacon of new 21st Century Economy.

Within 15-20 years they might have a huge turnaround..