patrick.net

best platform ever

Just a few liberals re-distributing wealth (to themselves).

unkown is the cost of not fighting that war.

FortWayne says

union bosses living it up

I can't believe you still have the fantasy about "union bosses."

You have written on Patnet probably 10 times about the evils of unions and public sector union bosses making a fortune fucking over the taxpayerss. This is 100% made up bs. I defy you to find a tiny shred of documentation about public a sector "union boss" enriching himself in his or her position. Find a single story!!

The interesting thing is that you just pull something like that out of your ass, and repeat it over and over again for years.

(This pension scandal is another story all together, and it's good to see the guy is being busted for taking bribes to invest pension funds with certain private equity firms)

marcus says

I defy you to find a tiny shred of documentation about public a sector "union boss" enriching himself in his or her position. Find a single story!!

Marcus ignores me so he won't see this published example of a public sector union boss enriching himself in his position while pushing the state towards bankruptcy - though union boss Don Novey, a state employee, spent himself into bankruptcy after taking more than $1 million in two years:

"He is especially proud that he won his members by far the most generous wages and benefits that prison officers get anywhere in the country. Under the last deal he negotiated, which expired in 2006, the average member of the California Correctional Peace Officers Association (CCPOA) earned around $70,000 a year and more than $100,000 with overtime. (Since then, wages have gone up again.) Mr Novey negotiated pensions of up to 90% of salary starting at as early as 50...."

""Where did the this money go?" Spitzer asked after noting that Novey made more than $1 million total from 2008 and 2009 but has assets of only $354,000."

(A court later rejected Novey's bankruptcy plan, noting luxury assets.)

Bap33 says

best platform ever

Bop69 and similar closeted morons are a major reason why corrupt pols and their patronage networks are able to rob everyone blind and careen the treasury towards bankruptcy. All a politician has to say is "gay marriage" and Bop69 runs screaming from what he can't accept about himself. He doesn't care what it costs, as long as they promise government will save him from himself.

Typical liberal response I see here is to try to change the subject when they can't defend the actions of union thug bosses.

marcus says

defy you to find a tiny shred of documentation about public a sector "union boss" enriching himself in his or her position. Find a single story!!

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390443545504577563354099070924.html

A former rising star within the Service Employees International Union has been charged with bilking his ex-employer, one of the nation's most powerful labor groups.

The charges cap a four-year probe by the Labor Department, the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the Internal Revenue Service. Mr. Freeman, who now lives in Pittsburgh and has recently worked as a business consultant, faces a maximum sentence of more than 200 years in prison if convicted on all count

note the term "public sector"

I'm referring to unions of public service workers, such as police, fire, teachers etc. THese are mostly the only big unions left, that talk radio has the dimbulbs all fired up about ending.

(another example of retarded voter hurting themselves and their descendents)

But maybe you have found an example. I know our president of UTLA, a former veteran teacher, is paid like a teacher (but a bit more to account for his year round work. And I know the guy is high integrity and took the job to try to do a good job for the members. So the term "union boss" or "union thug" (especially rich these days for public service unions) is quite laughable.

marcus says

note the term "public sector"

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2013/jan/21/border-patrol-union-boss-fraud-charges/
Ex-Border Patrol union boss fights fraud charges

marcus says

This is 100% made up bs. I defy you to find a tiny shred of documentation about public a sector "union boss" enriching himself in his or her position. Find a single story!!

Try one above, it isn't a fake story. And it isn't the first one either. Seems like people at the top like to steal from people below them.

FortWayne says

Seems like people at the top like to steal from people below them.

Yes, and I guess ending all union organization of labor is your idea of the best way to prevent this.

http://www.sacbee.com/statepay/

you want to look specifically under the "department" tab at California highway patrol, parks and recreation, state teachers retirement sys, since these departments are always in need of money...

http://www.sacbee.com/2011/03/03/3446569/see-average-police-firefighter.html?appSession=966369319262406

marcus says

Yes, and I guess ending all union organization of labor is your idea of the best way to prevent this.

Well, if government and it's unions cannot be repaired they should be abolished and replaced with something that will function properly.

And I certainly don't see how we can keep on affording this (link below). Sure explains why all the infrastructure is failing everywhere. All the money is going to the unions or politicians, nothing is left to pay to do the actual work. And Marcus I know you'll say unions do the work, but it's not what I see. I see them do the minimum, not enough to keep the system going, while everything crumbles around us and we are constantly out of money.

http://www.sacbee.com/statepay/

http://www.sacbee.com/2011/03/03/3446569/see-average-police-firefighter.html?appSession=055369527530983

This has nothing to do with UNIONS or with PENSIONS per se.

Some FINANCE wonk sits atop a mountain of money, some of it we question how it was gained. You think it matters to him the money came from teachers instead of Walmart workers? Nope, it's just MONEY. It's not like he was TRAINED by UNION THUGS or MAFIA to commit all this fraud eh? I'm pretty sure Finance guys know how to steal money without instruction or a gun to their head. Were he working at Goldman Sachs or Bain Capital we'd say he's a "successful businessman" and we should ADMIRE them. This dude was 60+ nearer to END of career by the time he got to CalPERS, where was he before that? A trail of fraud?

I pretty much assume my guys at Fidelity, a few of them are crooked too.

BFD!

Nobody in finance goes to jail, unless they are some insignificant little fish that agencies need to "make an example of" so they look like they are working.

Backslapping friends of Union Employees -

http://www.city-journal.org/2013/23_1_calpers.html

Online access to donation of the outgoing Calpers boss: http://www.campaignmoney.com/political/contributions/fred-buenrostro.asp?cycle=10

Related Pension issues in California raised a decade ago:

http://www.caltax.org/Korber-MedicalPensions5-10-04.pdf

Vicente says

This has nothing to do with UNIONS or with PENSIONS per se.

Yes it does. If all our money is going to pay into the failing wall street investment system (Calpers) we have no money left to run the city. And CALPERS doesn't have to be responsible with investments, why would they, taxpayers guarantee the losses.

Guarantee my losses in Nevada, you think I'll care how much I gamble away? Same thing... Now if we actually stopped guaranteeing pensions, CALPERS would have to be responsible since union members would keep it in check.

CalPERs has been a failure, and will always be a failure. It needs to be shut down.

FortWayne says

Well, if government and it's unions cannot be repaired they should be abolished
and replaced with something that will function properly.

Ask the progs why both FDR and George Meaney were against public sector unions. You will get crickets.

You are right that unions and their Democrat political slaves will fight tooth and nail to prevent any reform. As we are seeing in Stockton and San Bernardino (and Detroit), the unions and the bureaucracy will let the City burn to the ground, cut services and raise taxes before they touch their gold plated pensions and benefits.

Stockton's bankruptcy case starts this week. If a judge rules that Calpers and their pension fund should be treated the same as the other creditors.............it could finally be the tripping point to fix California.

We simply can't fix California's budget problems without reforming pensions.

socal2 says

We simply can't fix California's budget problems without reforming pensions.

Ever watch the news or follow current events ?

Maybe you should say something like:

"I am happy to see the aggressive pension reform California has engaged in recently, but still think they need to do more. Who knows, with the democrats finally back in control of California's government (including legislature), there may be hope. "

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/12/california-pension-reform-bill_n_1878662.html

FortWayne says

I see them do the minimum, not enough to keep the system going, while everything crumbles around us and we are constantly out of money.

WEll you've always been gullible about this issue. Why should you let facts get in the way ?

Unions aren't the problem. Our political system is. But you harp on the way that our system has given too much voice to unions (and their political $$ power), but dont' seem to realize that is is really about the same flaw that gives corporations the power they have. Can you say Haliburton ?

Unions for police, fire, postal workers, teachers and so on have nothing to do with the work they are required to do. They do protact some rights, and most important they give them the ability to bargain collectively for decent pay and benefits. Just decent.

This impacts everyone elses pay and benefits to a degree. Destroying this is just another step towards us being basically a third world country, owned and operated by a bunch of corporations.

Look to Germany and unionized workers at Volkswagon and MErcedes if you think that unions are by definition bad. Organized labor is not the problem. But I know, you enjoy the lies that the Koch brothers feed you, and you are just stupid enough to believe them.

marcus says

Ever watch the news or follow current events ?

Maybe you should say something like:

"I am happy to see the aggressive pension reform California has engaged in
recently, but still think they need to do more. Who knows, with the democrats
finally back in control of California's government (including legislature),
there may be hope. "

Dude - this "reform" is just nibbling at the margins. The damage is already done with existing retirees. Stopping the bleeding with new public employees is the very LEAST our politicians should be doing.

Even Brown admits this is just a first step and is still subject to unions collective bargaining regarding how much an employee or the government needs to kick into the fund. Brown had to show some efforts at "reform" in order to get us dopes in California to agree to another tax hike.

Besides - we can thank our current Governor for legalizing public sector unions back in the 1970's creating this mess in the first place.

marcus says

Unions aren't the problem. Our political system is.

Both FDR and George Meany recognized that public sector unions can corrupt our politics.

“It is impossible to bargain collectively with the government.”

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/02/18/the-first-blow-against-public-employees/fdr-warned-us-about-public-sector-unions

What do you suppose Jerry Brown knows that they didn't?

FortWayne says

Yes it does. If all our money is going to pay into the failing wall street investment system (Calpers) we have no money left to run the city.

Bzzzzt, wrong.

A little restructuring and reform of payment levels, and it'll be fixed. The people who hate the entire concept of pensions, are the ones who predicate their Mad Max disaster scenarios on a worst case with nothing changing. We know it'll change, it always does. Nothing is etched in stone in California except Prop 13.

Besides what's so bad about a little bankruptcy. Iceland used it to good effect. So did some California cities already. Flush the debts once in a while. The idea that any obligation is an immutable set of shackles for eternity, just isn't American reality.

Vicente says

This is horsehockey, plain and simple.

A little restructuring and reform of payment levels, and it'll be fixed. The
people who hate the entire concept of pensions, are the ones who predicate their
Mad Max disaster scenarios on a worst case with nothing changing. We know it'll
change, it always does. Nothing is etched in stone in California except Prop
13.

Yeah - its just in our heads. Just a little restructuring and they will get it fixed in time to save Vallejo, Stockton, San Bernardino, Detroit, Modesto, Fresno, LA.........

Speaking of Mad Max scenarios, have you been to San Bernardino lately? Seems like the union bureacracy will let these cities burn to the ground before reforming their labor costs.

City Attorney Tells San Bernardino Residents To ‘Lock Their Doors,’ ‘Load Their Guns’ Because Of Police Downsizing
http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2012/11/30/city-attorney-tells-san-bernardino-residents-to-lock-their-doors-load-their-guns-because-of-police-downsizing/

Vicente says

Besides what's so bad about a little bankruptcy. Iceland used it to good
effect. So did some California cities already. Flush the debts once in a while.
The idea that any obligation is an immutable set of shackles for eternity, just
isn't American reality.

I agree with you 100% that no obligation is "immutable".

Especially public sector pensions!

Stockton's bankruptcy case is starting this week. The City is arguing that it should be able to shaft all other creditors, reduce services and raise taxes before touching their "immutable" pensions.

Just let these cities burn to the ground so we can keep paying out union pensions!

socal2 says

Both FDR and George Meany recognized that public sector unions can corrupt our politics.

“It is impossible to bargain collectively with the government.”

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/02/18/the-first-blow-against-public-employees/fdr-warned-us-about-public-sector-unions

Nice propaganda piece.

Recent history proves that this isn't true.

Instead their elected representatives must negotiate spending and policy decisions with unions. That is not exactly democratic – a fact that unions once recognized.

Anyone with half a brain can see that since 2007 California workers have been taking furlough days with paycuts, layoffs (increased workloads), without a peep of protest or demands for better pay etc.

This PROVES that public unions are democratic and sensitive to the taxpayers side. You also have heard and will hear little protest to necessary pension reforms. Sure a comment hear and there, but not protest marches or any serious outcry.

Police and Teachers can't win big pay raises without the majority of taxpayers on their side. This is democracy.

Who cares about a single comment from the head of the AFL-CIO in the 1930s, or FDR for that matter ? They were fighting battles to build private unions. One thing at a time.

By 1960, it became obvious that public employees were going to be exploited and underpaid forever without some organizing and collective bargaining.

Thank goodness they did. Who knows what kind of corruption we would have in AMerican police forces by now without it, or what the quality of public education would be.

Preemptive:

The annual Gallup poll about education shows that Americans are overwhelmingly dissatisfied with the quality of the nation’s schools, but 77 percent of public school parents award their own child’s public school a grade of A or B, the highest level of approval since the question was first asked in 1985.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/nov/11/myth-charter-schools/?pagination=false

marcus says

Anyone with half a brain can see that since 2007 California workers have been
taking furlough days with paycuts, layoffs (increased workloads), without a peep
of protest or demands for better pay etc.

This PROVES that public unions are democratic and sensitive to the taxpayers
side. You also have heard and will hear little protest to necessary pension
reforms. Sure a comment hear and there, but not protest marches or any serious
outcry.

Oh please - the fact that cities like Stockton, Vallejo and San Bernardino are now (or have been) in bankruptcy proceedings PROVES that public unions are not sensitive to the taxpayer side.

So far Stocton has refused to touch their pensions and are instead cutting services, raising taxes and now getting ready to shaft all of their other creditors through bankruptcy before compromising on their fat pension plans.

The union has the mentality that they "got theirs" for their members and damn everyone else.......even if that means destroying the city (or employer) in the process.

Marcus said: They do protect some rights, and most important they give them the ability to bargain collectively for decent pay and benefits. Just decent.
If you go into teaching right out of school, you can retire at 100% of salary when the rest of us aren't even yet eligible to begin collecting the max Social Security benefit. CA teachers don't participate in SS, but instead pay 8% of their salary to CalSTRS (FICA payroll deductions are 6.2% for the rest of us). Heck, even with a 'lost decade', you can teach and retire at 75% of salary. I'd say that's more than decent.

socal2 says

I agree with you 100% that no obligation is "immutable".

Especially public sector pensions!

My California teachers pension is in place of social security. It isn't something that can be taken away. They can change the rules as to what I pay in or what the district of the state pays in to it, or maybe very slightly tweak cola increases, but if you understand what it is, then you understand they can't totally shaft the employees the way that say a bankrupt airline screws employees out of their pensions.

What they could do though, is allow a brief period of hyper inflation to render our pensions to be worth far less than expected. I wouldn't be all that surprised to see that happen. OR to see some pretty serious (even violent) protests in the aftermath.

marcus says

What they could do though, is allow a brief period of hyper inflation to
render our pensions to be worth far less than expected. I wouldn't be all that
surprised to see that happen. OR to see some pretty serious (even violent)
protests in the aftermath.

I would be careful about threats of violent protests.

I think even in uber-liberal California, the masses will eventually get wise and rise up with pitch-forks if we keep letting our major cities go bankrupt and turn into crime zones because the union bureaucracy refuse to budge on their ponzi scheme pension plans.

Everyone is going to take a hit. Citizens will pay more taxes with reduced services, bond holders will get a hair cut and government workers sure as hell should be expected to sacrifice as well.

If we can overhaul our healthcare system with Obamacare, I am pretty sure we can overhaul existing public pensions.

EBGuy says

If you go into teaching right out of school, you can retire at 100% of salary when the rest of us aren't even yet eligible to begin collecting the max Social Security benefit. CA teachers don't participate in SS, but instead pay 8% of their salary to CalSTRS (FICA payroll deductions are 6.2% for the rest of us). Heck, even with a 'lost decade', you can teach and retire at 75% of salary. I'd say that's more than decent.

IT's only "more than decent" if you underestimate the real work that teaching for 40 years is. And it depends on the price you attribute in the diminished "upside" in that life long commitment to a public service job.

Most people who don't (or didn't) choose such a path understood full well the benefits they could have had, but instead chose an ambitious career in business or elsewhere, following their dreams.

Now we have these 40 to 65 year olds who didn't succeed in making the millions they thought they would, who disparage and minimize the commitment and sacrifice made by many people who devoted themselves to helping others or society in a service job for 40 years, because they have a pension to show for it.

socal2 says

I would be careful about threats of violent protests.

You're a moron if you're accusing me of making a threat. Fuck you, idiot.

Again, I'm sure the more alert and aware among you understand that state pension plans are being reformed and will continue to be.

As for localized city corruption and pension abuses, that's another story, Some municipalities in various pension systems will (I'm guessing) have a variety of outcomes.

marcus says

socal2 says

I would be careful about threats of violent protests.

Your a moron if you're accusing me of making a threat. Fuck you, idiot.

I didn't accuse you of "making" a threat.

I was responding to this statement by you:

"What they could do though, is allow a brief period of hyper inflation to render our pensions to be worth far less than expected. I wouldn't be all that surprised to see that happen. OR to see some pretty serious (even violent) protests in the aftermath".

Just pointing out that times have changed and I don't think that government employees will have as much sympathy if we keep letting our cities go bankrupt without major union concessions.

And lets not pretend that unions don't have a history of protests (or even violence) when they don't get their way.

socal2 says

I would be careful about threats of violent protests.

socal2 says

I didn't accuse you of "making" a threat.

I was not making a threat. Nor was I referring to unions. Unions would not be prioritizing the interests of retirees.

Btw, regarding: "I would be careful about threats of violence." If you weren't implying that I was making a threat, who is it that you think was ?

I was thinking more along the lines of an angry ex-cop whose pension was no longer worth anything because of hyper inflation, in a tower doing that deranged sniper thing.

AGAIN, NOT A THREAT, although I can understand why anyone might be more than a little upset, if what they viewed as their life savings was taken away from them.

marcus, I still can't help but wonder if this is "more than decent"...The average retired teacher in California made more than the average working teacher in 28 states, according to the salary rankings published by NEA.

Vicente says

Bzzzzt, wrong.

A little restructuring and reform of payment levels, and it'll be fixed. The people who hate the entire concept of pensions, are the ones who predicate their Mad Max disaster scenarios on a worst case with nothing changing. We know it'll change, it always does. Nothing is etched in stone in California except Prop 13.

Besides what's so bad about a little bankruptcy. Iceland used it to good effect. So did some California cities already. Flush the debts once in a while. The idea that any obligation is an immutable set of shackles for eternity, just isn't American reality.

CA cities used it, but what is the point if they can't shed the liability, nor does it help anyone to have retirees left with nothing either. There should be a balance there, retirees getting their benefits without corruption at the top wasting all the dollars.

When Davis gave the farm away (and later was recalled), he put a nail in the coffin there. Now we are falling apart. We'll be ok for a year or two since Obama sent a lot of dollars to CA, but once that money runs out we are done for. Calpers is a huge problem and it needs to lose taxpayer guarantees on it's bad investments.

EBGuy says

The average retired teacher in California made more than the average working teacher in 28 states, according to the salary rankings published by NEA.

This speaks to how underpaid teachers are in many places, and to the high cost of living (especially housing) in California.