patrick.net

Call it Crazy says

Case in point, look at Afghanistan. Even with our overwhelming firepower, after 10 years, we still can't overpower the goat herders...

Thanks for your usual hate and obvious bigotry

No totalitarian regime has ever seized power without popular support. Ever.

If Indians would have had guns then, they would not have a India today.

They would have murdered each other just like IRAQ.

Yeah, a bunch of dumb fuck rednecks getting their heads blown off.

Dan8267 says

I'm all for people having guns to keep the police, military, and government in check, but the fact is the guns the people have are no match for the guns and military hardware the police and military have. So how exactly does the availability of guns keep us safe from government?

Government would have very difficult time committing purges and ethnic cleansing. It takes a lot more resources to arrest thousands of armed people compared to unarmed.

Dan8267 says

[US Citizens] did not resist the exercising of torture by our government, the passage of the Patriot Act or the NDAA, the arrest and sexual abuse of the hero Bradly Manning, the Unconstitutional spying on U.S. citizens, the assassination of a U.S. citizen without trial, the use of drone strikes against children, or any of the many abuses of human rights by the TSA.

A great example of emotional shallowness of our time. We as a nation have supported worse kinds of offenses against humanity overseas, and I think that karma is biting us back now. Slowly creeping back into our nation against our own citizens.

Please don't lump all pro-gun individuals into a single minded group. Everyone does not think same, you know that.

In many countries in latin america gun ownership is illegal yet crime and kidnappings are rampant. I also agree that it is much harder for a government to execute 1937esque stalinist purges when the citizens are armed. Of course, the government has better weapons but if a partisan guerilla force was well organized/inspired to resist the government they could inflict serious damage and casualties on government forces and eventuall wear down the governments' will to round up/purge citizens.

FortWayne says

Dan8267 says

I'm all for people having guns to keep the police, military, and government in check, but the fact is the guns the people have are no match for the guns and military hardware the police and military have. So how exactly does the availability of guns keep us safe from government?

Government would have very difficult time committing purges and ethnic cleansing. It takes a lot more resources to arrest thousands of armed people compared to unarmed.

Funny story. Germany had extremely strict gun control laws in the 1920s. They began to relax in the late 1920s, and we all know what happened then.

/thread

FortWayne says

Please don't lump all pro-gun individuals into a single minded group. Everyone does not think same, you know that.

Deal, as long as you don't lump all "liberals" into a single minded group.

Call it Crazy says

It's not the type of hardware, it's the number of gun owners. You could have great hardware, but if you are overpowered 20 to 1, you'll have a hard time winning.

Tell that to the Aztec.

Call it Crazy says

Case in point, look at Afghanistan. Even with our overwhelming firepower, after 10 years, we still can't overpower the goat herders...

I think that the problem in Afghanistan is that there is no winning condition. It's not a military problem to begin with and there are no clear political goals.

121212 says

Call it Crazy says

Case in point, look at Afghanistan. Even with our overwhelming firepower, after 10 years, we still can't overpower the goat herders...

Thanks for your usual hate and obvious bigotry

Crazy's goat herder reference emphasizes the ridiculous asymmetry in the technology used by each side. As such, I don't find anything bigoted in it.

FortWayne says

Government would have very difficult time committing purges and ethnic cleansing. It takes a lot more resources to arrest thousands of armed people compared to unarmed.

Pure bullshit. Most of the purges and ethnic cleansing has been the losers in a civil war where both sides had plenty of guns.

Call it Crazy says

Where's YOUR line?

My line was crossed with the Patriot act and the invasion of Iraq, big reasons I'm an expat.

PPete says

If Gandhi said it, it must be true. Here are some of his other quotes. Please note that "Kaffir" means "nigger".

A general belief seems to prevail in the colony that the Indians are little better, if at all, than the savages or natives of Africa. Even the children are taught to believe in that manner, with the result that the Indian is being dragged down to the position of a raw Kaffir.

I do not want to see the allies defeated. But I do not consider Hitler to be as bad as he is depicted. He is showing an ability that is amazing and seems to be gaining his victories without much bloodshed.

Kevin says

No totalitarian regime has ever seized power without popular support. Ever.

About 40-50% of Americans do support totalitarian government, torture, and the suspension of human and civil rights to get "the bad guy", and they are willing to allow our government agents, acting non-transparently and without accountability, to unilaterally determine who the bad guy is.

That 40-50% believe that the ends justify the means. And that is what leads to totalitarian government.

Call it Crazy says

Case in point, look at Afghanistan. Even with our overwhelming firepower, after 10 years, we still can't overpower the goat herders...

Overwhelming firepower? Those 35 million goat herders, who were and still are equipped with a lot of very modern sophisticated military hardware managed to defeat 400,000 soviet troops, including several tank divisions.

The peak US commitment was 45,000 troops. Am I missing something in the definition of "overwhelming" here?

leo707 says

FortWayne says

Please don't lump all pro-gun individuals into a single minded group. Everyone does not think same, you know that.

Deal, as long as you don't lump all "liberals" into a single minded group.

You got yourself a deal.

Call it Crazy says

I think it was because most of that didn't directly apply to law abiding citizens who owned firearms... they were just policies that pertained to "others".

Now, if the gov't. comes knocking on your door looking to take your firearms, that becomes a personal situation, and I believe you will see a different "response"....

OK, then why didn't the pro-gun people hunt down these assholes? If an innocent man gets shot by the police for lawfully possessing a gun in his own home for home defense and the police are not even prosecuted and still the pro-gun crowd does nothing to bring the police to justice, then the argument that guns protect us from even local government gone bad is complete bullshit.

For once I agree with Dan. Our government was carefully constructed with many checks on raw democratic power to PREVENT a simple democracy. The founders didnt trust the people not to be swayed back and forth with the fickle whims of chance.

FortWayne says

Government would have very difficult time committing purges and ethnic cleansing. It takes a lot more resources to arrest thousands of armed people compared to unarmed.

Ethnic purges isn't what I'm concerned about. U.S. citizens disappearing in the middle of the night because some dumb ass clerk enters a typo in a terrorist database giving a wrong address or social security number is what I'm worried about.

Dan8267 says

Kevin says

No totalitarian regime has ever seized power without popular support. Ever.

About 40-50% of Americans do support totalitarian government, torture, and the suspension of human and civil rights to get "the bad guy", and they are willing to allow our government agents, acting non-transparently and without accountability, to unilaterally determine who the bad guy is.

That 40-50% believe that the ends justify the means. And that is what leads to totalitarian government.

As long as it remains 40-50%, we're fine. It has been worse in the past.

FortWayne says

A great example of emotional shallowness of our time. We as a nation have supported worse kinds of offenses against humanity overseas, and I think that karma is biting us back now. Slowly creeping back into our nation against our own citizens.

Agreed, except for the part about karma. Karma's just a myth, like heaven and hell, to allow people to delude themselves that no injustice goes uncorrected.

FortWayne says

Please don't lump all pro-gun individuals into a single minded group. Everyone does not think same, you know that.

Good point. I don't think all pro-gun people are pro-gun for the same reasons. I like the pro-gun culture of Swiss, but that culture doesn't glorify gun violence or cheapen human life like American culture often does. The Swiss have a more dispassionate, rational, and mature attitude towards firearms. They treat them like tools rather than toys.

Not that there is anything wrong with a good first person shooter game, but no one gets hurt in those.

Call it Crazy says

I guess the question is, how many MORE freedoms do you want taken away before you draw the line in the sand?? Where's YOUR line?

Pasted a long time ago. Where the hell is the revolution?

leo707 says

FortWayne says

Please don't lump all pro-gun individuals into a single minded group. Everyone does not think same, you know that.

Deal, as long as you don't lump all "liberals" into a single minded group.

+1

Quigley says

For once I agree with Dan. Our government was carefully constructed with many checks on raw democratic power to PREVENT a simple democracy. The founders didnt trust the people not to be swayed back and forth with the fickle whims of chance.

As Hermann Goering said,

Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.

Haven't we've seen that during the entire past 12 years with the wars on Iraq/Afghanistan/Terror?

Call it Crazy says

Dan8267 says

Where the hell is the revolution?

Are you signing up??

If there was a snowball chance in hell of a revolution working, I would, but there isn't. And all I'd ask for from the revolution is getting the current politicians out of office, taking the power from the lobbyists, and rewriting the Constitution to protect rights better and provide better checks and balances in the 21st century -- basically shit that should be passed by Congress right now but won't because the assholes in power are holding the country hostage. I wouldn't even be interested in taking power for myself or others.

But where's the outrage? America is a country of sheep. No matter how bad things get -- and I hope they don't get any worse -- the people aren't going to up-rise. America lost its rebel spirit in the 19th century.

And no, I wouldn't be convinced to join these guys. I don't think they'll pull it off.

121212 says

Thanks for your usual hate and obvious bigotry

121212 says

If Indians would have had guns then, they would not have a India today.

They would have murdered each other just like IRAQ.

I find this an odd combination of comments.

bob2356 says

Call it Crazy says

Case in point, look at Afghanistan. Even with our overwhelming firepower, after 10 years, we still can't overpower the goat herders...

Overwhelming firepower? Those 35 million goat herders, who were and still are equipped with a lot of very modern sophisticated military hardware managed to defeat 400,000 soviet troops, including several tank divisions.

The peak US commitment was 45,000 troops. Am I missing something in the definition of "overwhelming" here?

I think you need to study Russian history and look at how craptacular their military has been historically. WW2 was an exception because they had a ruthless dictator and huge amount of weapons and supplies from the US.

zzyzzx says

WW2 was an exception because they had a ruthless dictator and huge amount of weapons and supplies from the US.

Russia produced 56,000 T-34 tanks during WWII in their own factories. That might have had something to do with their combat readiness. Although not the best tank on the field, they had a hell of a lot of them.

Not everything on the History Channel is crap, only about 50%.

Dan8267 says

Russia produced 56,000 T-34 tanks during WWII in their own factories. That might have had something to do with their combat readiness. Although not the best tank on the field, they had a hell of a lot of them.

Factories they MOVED thousands of miles away from the advancing Germans I might add.

BTW you ever seen one of these up close? I have. The guide on the tour I was on told me on average the engines in these things would shed a kilo of metal shavings during break in.

These things were not built with love, just to dish it out.

Dan8267 says

Pasted a long time ago. Where the hell is the revolution?

OWS?

New Renter says

Dan8267 says

Pasted a long time ago. Where the hell is the revolution?

OWS?

OWS was no revolution. Their strategy was to get beaten up by cops as they played drums. Hardly rebels.

Dan8267 says

About 40-50% of Americans do support totalitarian government, torture, and the suspension of human and civil rights to get "the bad guy",

Terrorist have no human and civil rights.. you can check with the British, Israeli, Japanese, Germans and Italian Govt as they dealt with their own terrorists.

New Renter says

Dan8267 says

Pasted a long time ago. Where the hell is the revolution?

OWS?

OWS was a bunch of angry liberals who didn't really have any idea what they wanted to fix. That's why they failed. They were Howard Beale.

At least the teaparty, as dumb as they are, have something coherent to agree on.

thomaswong.1986 says

Terrorist have no human and civil rights.. you can check with the British, Israeli, Japanese, Germans and Italian Govt as they dealt with their own terrorists.

It's a good thing the United States isn't any of those countries and we're supposed to treat all people as innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

If someone is convicted of terrorism, sure, by all means, do whatever you want to them. I don't care. What we're doing right now is saying that anybody that the government wants to label a terrorist is automatically guilty. That's some serious shit.

thomaswong.1986 says

Terrorist have no human and civil rights.. you can check with the British, Israeli, Japanese, Germans and Italian Govt as they dealt with their own terrorists.

What they do is abide by UN Counter-Terrorism Implementation Task Force (CTITF) guidelines for “Protection of human rights and fundamental freedoms while countering terrorism”. Read about it some time.

bob2356 says

What they do is abide by UN Counter-Terrorism Implementation Task Force (CTITF) guidelines for “Protection of human rights and fundamental freedoms while countering terrorism”. Read about it some time.

and the nations who are victims of terrorism ignore it as they should...
ask the Brits about the Irish terrorists some time.

John Bailo says

Kevin says

No totalitarian regime has ever seized power without popular support. Ever.

Colonialism?

Vichy France?

These are occupations, not "governments" in the sense that we're talking about here.

Pinochet?

You'd be surprised to learn just how widespread support for Pinochet was. It's hard to pull off a coup without one. Like many (most?) such coups, though, the people that seized power immediately discarded the promises that they made to get there.

Germany had essentially a total ban on guns in the 20s you moron. The permitying process was what I was referring to by "relaxed"standards.