patrick.net

Greatest I am says

f all do evil/sin by nature then, the evil/sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not do evil/sin. Can we then help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

no we can not avoid commiting sin. Period.

God created freedom of choice between good and evil before he created Adam.

Greatest I am says

Evil then is only human to human when they know they are doing evil and intend harm.

wrong.

You can be/intend evil to yourself or even an animal/pet.

Greatest I am says

Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim

only liberal/left/progressive/pink-o types are against fair play (aka competition). They hate keeping score and they hate winners.

Bap33 says

Greatest I am says

f all do evil/sin by nature then, the evil/sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not do evil/sin. Can we then help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

no we can not avoid commiting sin. Period.

God created freedom of choice between good and evil before he created Adam.

That being the case, and you cannot help but follow your nature, is God just in punishing you for something that you cannot help doing?

Regards
DL

the sun light and the rain both touch the heads of the just and the unjust, the evil and the good. Sun was not created for just one or the other, neither was rain. Light and darkness are seen by both.

what is it you are looking for?

If as you say, you cannot help but sin, then you are following your God given nature. You cannot go against your nature.

If God made you as you are, is it just for him to punish you for you being and doing exactly what he created you to do.

Regards
DL

yep, it's just.

Bap33 says

yep, it's just.

By your standard, if you follow your God, if your child snores and cannot help himself or herself and is following their nature, you think it would be just for you to punish him or her for snoring. Right?

Regards
DL

nope. snoring is an involuntary act. punishment is for correcting a voluntary act. don't forget, I'm not God.

Ice,
God created all. Everything. God created Satan. Every fiber of Satan's being was hand-built by God. The only thing God does not control is the Free-Will of his creations.

I'll put it really simple and Bible based:
1) Eternal Life is living in God's presence forever (Heaven)
2) Eternal Death is living away from God's presence forever (outer darkness, Hell, pit of fire)
1a) God created his presence. In His presence is where we find good, and love, and honor.
2a) God also created his absence. In His absebce is where we find evil, and hate, and dishonor. (and liberalism)

Sin, death, hate, cheating, Satan, these all reside away from God's presence, but they are created by God. WHen he created light, he also created darkness.

Bap33 says

nope. snoring is an involuntary act. punishment is for correcting a voluntary act. don't forget, I'm not God.

Judgment and punishment go hand in hand.

Our human laws have a form of punishment where the penalty is graduated to fit the crime. An eye for an eye type of justice.
God‘s punishment seems to surpass this standard.

The definition I am comparing here is the eternal fire and torture type of hell and I am not particularly interested in the myriad of other definitions and theories that some use to supplant this traditional view.

To ascertain if hell would be a moral construct or not, all you need do is answer these
simple question for yourself.

1. Is it good justice for a soul to be able to sin for only 120 years and then have to suffer torture for 12000000000000000000000000 + years?

2. Is it good justice for small or mediocre sinners to have to bear the same sentence as Hitler, Stalin and other genocidal maniacs?
This might actually include God if you see Noah’s flood as God using genocide and not justice against man. Pardon the digression.

Punishment is usually only given to change attitude or actions and cause the sinner to repent.

3. Is it good justice to continue to torture a soul in hell if no change in attitude or actions are to result?

4. If you answered yes to these questions, then would killing the soul not be a better form of justice than to torture it for no possible good result or purpose?

Is hell a moral construct or not?

Please explain your reasons and know that ---just because you think God created it ---does not explain your moral judgment. It is your view I seek and not God’s as no one can speak for God.

Regards
DL

Ice says

God DID NOT create sin!!!! What baofofn is telling these lies, I wonder? What entity would lead all absent of God's words to the same conclusion that God created evil, thus proving God's words wrong? What sneaky thing wants you to blame God rather than looking anywhere else, I wonder? What person better than the creator of lies to tell you that,huh? Satan has your ear, to lead you away from God and the truth, because armed with the truth you wouldn't fall for his parlor tricks so easy! The perversion of God's ways is sin. Satan invented this action, thus SATAN is the father of sin! Take that Satan,LOL! I know your tricks, boy! Don't allow yourselves to be pawns to a thankless liar. Arm yourselves with knowledge. I hope you like the truth,partner! If so, that should help you!My rational mind.

Blaming Satan. How quaint. You make him co-creator with God . So much for God creating everything the way scriptures indicate. Then again, better to have Satan decide what is evil as God has no morals. If he did he would not use genocide against us and would cure instead of kill.

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin.

Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility.

Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created.

Evil then is only human to human.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should all see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from. God or nature.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

http://www.youtube.com/user/ProfMTH#g/c/6F8036F680C1DBEB

Regards
DL

Bap33 says

Ice,

God created all. Everything. God created Satan. Every fiber of Satan's being was hand-built by God. The only thing God does not control is the Free-Will of his creations.

I'll put it really simple and Bible based:

1) Eternal Life is living in God's presence forever (Heaven)

2) Eternal Death is living away from God's presence forever (outer darkness, Hell, pit of fire)

1a) God created his presence. In His presence is where we find good, and love, and honor.

2a) God also created his absence. In His absebce is where we find evil, and hate, and dishonor. (and liberalism)

Sin, death, hate, cheating, Satan, these all reside away from God's presence, but they are created by God. WHen he created light, he also created darkness.

Yet there is no proof that any God created anything.
All you have is hearsay and book say.

Without certainty on your part, what you say are lies.

Regards
DL

The experiments in the video are not double-blind!!!

That said, the conclusion that morality is to a large degree instinctual is correct. And that is why morality is often flawed, because it's instinctual instead of thought out. Instinct is not the most reliable system, especially when your environment is nothing like the environment in which the instinct evolved.

Greatest I am says

Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Wrong question. God doesn't exist and therefore is irrelevant to morality.

As for not doing evil, we are all sophisticated decision making machines. Yes, we like the universe at large is deterministic, but we deterministically decide to do good or evil. I'm for using algorithms that favor good over evil.

Satan is not evil, in fact, Satan is God's best friend.

-More people go to church and praise God not because they love God, rather they fear Hell.

-Satan corrals all the people God doesn't want to be in Heaven.

-God is all-knowing and all-powerful. If he didn't want Satan to be around anymore, he could snap his mighty fingers and Satan would disappear.

-Satan ratted out Eve as untrustworthy.

-They play games together all the time. For instance, God let Satan torture Job just to prove a point.

Dan8267 says

The experiments in the video are not double-blind!!!

That said, the conclusion that morality is to a large degree instinctual is correct. And that is why morality is often flawed, because it's instinctual instead of thought out. Instinct is not the most reliable system, especially when your environment is nothing like the environment in which the instinct evolved.

Greatest I am says

Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Wrong question. God doesn't exist and therefore is irrelevant to morality.

As for not doing evil, we are all sophisticated decision making machines. Yes, we like the universe at large is deterministic, but we deterministically decide to do good or evil. I'm for using algorithms that favor good over evil.

That would be good for those you compete against because you would go extinct if you put their good before your own.

Regards
DL

StoutFiles says

Satan is not evil, in fact, Satan is God's best friend.

-More people go to church and praise God not because they love God, rather they fear Hell.

-Satan corrals all the people God doesn't want to be in Heaven.

-God is all-knowing and all-powerful. If he didn't want Satan to be around anymore, he could snap his mighty fingers and Satan would disappear.

-Satan ratted out Eve as untrustworthy.

-They play games together all the time. For instance, God let Satan torture Job just to prove a point.

Not to win a point so much as to win his immoral bet of self-aggrandisement.

Ok. That is a point.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am says

Judgment and punishment go hand in hand.

nope. something can be judged good or bad.

Greatest I am says

That would be good for those you compete against because you would go extinct if you put their good before your own.

In the Stone Age, you would be correct. Evil and corrupt morality exists because it served our genetic code in the Stone Age. But this is not the Stone Age; it is the Nuclear Age. Such corruption are the most likely cause of our extinction.

Why is anyone tankilg about pathetic failure of religous beliefs? You might as well wallow in the dirt like some ignorant savages. The time for being controlled slaves is 100 years ago. So not fall victim to magic and bullshit.No-religion is the one defining thing that the red communists got correct!

Bap33 says

Greatest I am says

Judgment and punishment go hand in hand.

nope. something can be judged good or bad.

Does a negative judgement not hurt the one putting the charge up?

Yes it does but I do take your view as sound. You just have to look at the bigger picture of all those involved.

Regards
DL

Dan8267 says

Greatest I am says

That would be good for those you compete against because you would go extinct if you put their good before your own.

In the Stone Age, you would be correct. Evil and corrupt morality exists because it served our genetic code in the Stone Age. But this is not the Stone Age; it is the Nuclear Age. Such corruption are the most likely cause of our extinction.

Not to be rude but----

Hogwash. Nothing has basically changed over time. We still all compete for resources.

The last time you competed and won, you did evil, from the losers POV.

If he continues to lose, then he will starve to death.
Selecting for the fittest is always in play. Eugenics does the rest.

Regards
DL

Fikadu says

Why is anyone tankilg about pathetic failure of religous beliefs? !

Why, to educate those who need it of course.
Is that not why you post?

It should be if you have a sense of social conscience.

It is my view that all literalists and fundamentals hurt all of us who are Religionists.
They all hurt their parent religions and everyone else who has a belief. They make us all into laughing stocks and should rethink their position. There is a Godhead but not the God of talking animals, genocidal floods and retribution. Belief in fantasy is evil.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/5HKHaClUCw4&feature=PlayList&p=5123864A5243470E&index=0&playnext=1

They also do much harm to their own.

African witches and Jesus
http://www.youtube.com/embed/MlRG9gXriVI&feature=related

Jesus Camp 1of 9
http://www.youtube.com/embed/rBv8tv62yGM

Promoting death to Gays.
http://www.youtube.com/embed/RMw2Zg_BVzw&feature=related

For evil to grow my friends, all good people need do is nothing.
Fight them when you can. It is your duty to our fellow man.

Regards
DL

Bap33 says

Greatest I am says

Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim

only liberal/left/progressive/pink-o types are against fair play (aka competition). They hate keeping score and they hate winners.

Not all. Some are just against bullies.
There's a difference between competition and bullies. Competition has to consider all externalized costs. Bullying just takes whatever it wants without consideration of the total picture.
We have enough knowledge now that we don't have to accept the lassaiz faire bullshit of the Invisible Hand Job which doesn't exist in conditions where the opportunists kick out the ladder they climb.
Accumulation of wealth isn't the same thing as contributing to wealth.

Dan8267 says

Greatest I am says

That would be good for those you compete against because you would go extinct if you put their good before your own.

In the Stone Age, you would be correct. Evil and corrupt morality exists because it served our genetic code in the Stone Age. But this is not the Stone Age; it is the Nuclear Age. Such corruption are the most likely cause of our extinction.

Though we tend to think of a present Age as the thing that we label it with egotistically, the archeologists will label it based on predominant changes. What we live in may be called the Consumption Age (when resources disappeared), and if we don't get control of social mores in a useful sense, the one that comes after will be the Radioactive Period.

Fikadu says

Why is anyone tankilg about pathetic failure of religous beliefs? You might as well wallow in the dirt like some ignorant savages. The time for being controlled slaves is 100 years ago. So not fall victim to magic and bullshit.No-religion is the one defining thing that the red communists got correct!

Religion is fine, except for the ones that promote violence against non-believers. The real problem is organized religion, which is mainly to manipulate and extract money from the poor.

1. Good or bad is relative to the continuation of Life (things that contribute to future Life being good, things that take away from future Life being bad).
2. Good and bad things surround us, both intentionally and randomly. Evil, however, is an action which results in bad things that is taken based on unquestioned belief (Belief + Doubt = Sanity).
3. Any species will survive based on whether it is generous to its future MORE than it consumes in resources. In other words, if it gives more than it takes (Serves God, if you will).
The 'Peak' we are seeing coalesce around us now is 'peak intentionality', where humans are going to be tested for their validity under #3 above. We will either learn to turn our skills and imaginations toward contributing to our future (giving future humans the same property rights as present humans or corporations), or we will die off until we no longer steal our own future (i.e. debt, pollution).
Any functional morality must be based on these concepts.
God is the epitome of net future usefulness (consumed nothing to produce everything). We can't keep relying on Him to pull our asses out of the fire.
Humans are just one species out of billions that follow the same rules. We just have had more ability to avoid the rules for a short period of time by creating artificial environments. Our artificial environment still has to exchange resources with the real one, and eventually, the barrier will break down. Our concrete jungle will not support life on its own.

Auntiegrav says

Dan8267 says

Greatest I am says

That would be good for those you compete against because you would go extinct if you put their good before your own.

In the Stone Age, you would be correct. Evil and corrupt morality exists because it served our genetic code in the Stone Age. But this is not the Stone Age; it is the Nuclear Age. Such corruption are the most likely cause of our extinction.

Though we tend to think of a present Age as the thing that we label it with egotistically, the archeologists will label it based on predominant changes. What we live in may be called the Consumption Age (when resources disappeared), and if we don't get control of social mores in a useful sense, the one that comes after will be the Radioactive Period.

You are not keeping up.

Things are the best they have ever been.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ezVk1ahRF78

The same goes for violent death and slavery. Both the best we have ever enjoyed.

Regards
DL

StoutFiles says

Fikadu says

Why is anyone tankilg about pathetic failure of religous beliefs? You might as well wallow in the dirt like some ignorant savages. The time for being controlled slaves is 100 years ago. So not fall victim to magic and bullshit.No-religion is the one defining thing that the red communists got correct!

Religion is fine, except for the ones that promote violence against non-believers. The real problem is organized religion, which is mainly to manipulate and extract money from the poor.

It is my view that all literalists and fundamentals hurt all of us who are Religionists.
They all hurt their parent religions and everyone else who has a belief. They make us all into laughing stocks and should rethink their position. There is a Godhead but not the God of talking animals, genocidal floods and retribution. Belief in fantasy is evil.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/5HKHaClUCw4&feature=PlayList&p=5123864A5243470E&index=0&playnext=1

They also do much harm to their own.

African witches and Jesus
http://www.youtube.com/embed/MlRG9gXriVI&feature=related

Jesus Camp 1of 9
http://www.youtube.com/embed/rBv8tv62yGM

Promoting death to Gays.
http://www.youtube.com/embed/RMw2Zg_BVzw&feature=related

For evil to grow my friends, all good people need do is nothing.
Fight them when you can. It is your duty to our fellow man.

Regards
DL

Auntiegrav says

Any functional morality must be based on these concepts.

Here is what is basically man's universal moral position.

http://blog.ted.com/2008/09/17/the_real_differ/

You will note that it centers on how we treat others.

Your God's first commandment is completely self-serving.

Which system do you think is better?

As to your God helping us out, you willl know that all he is good for is killing us and showing poor examples of justice like being pleased that the innocent are made to suffer instead of the guilty. Promoting human sacrifice is also quite immoral.

Regards
DL