patrick.net

TPB says

Kevin says

Intel's stranglehold over the PC is something nobody wants to see repeated on mobile

No I think you meant to say, it's a damn shame that AMD sucks Ass.

What we are going to end up with is Evergreen processors(Remember that POS?) dominating the Mobile market. You can't stop the flow of better technology, Apple and Samsung can try, but that will only be the death of them.

William E Baughb

Dude, Intel's technology is *NOT* better than ARM designs. What they showed off a few months ago was worse than what was shipping in smartphones 3 years ago.

Intel got lazy with their desktop monopoly, and they're finding out the hard way what it's like to actually have to compete.

What they showed off a few months ago was worse than what was shipping in smartphones 3 years ago.
Help me out. Someone posted this AnandTech link on another thread that showed Intel seems to have put out a respectable SoC with the latest Atom Z2460. One year behind, at the most -- that's me speculating from the article and comments.

EBGuy says

What they showed off a few months ago was worse than what was shipping in smartphones 3 years ago.

Help me out. Someone posted this AnandTech link on another thread that showed Intel seems to have put out a respectable SoC with the latest Atom Z2460. One year behind, at the most -- that's me speculating from the article and comments.

One year behind at the *most*? Please. That's optimistic even from Intel's marketing department.

It's one year behind the average devices that were shipping at christmas. That puts it three years behind the top of the line stuff.

Kevin says

Dude, Intel's technology is *NOT* better than ARM designs.

ARM, Advanced RISC Machine, had great promise some 20+ years ago, but like UNIX, SoC, went no where in the consumer market. It may have a place in a niche market but not the big splash many wanted.

Today, Intel, with its CISC processers also incorporate RISC emulation (as they call it). So Intel already had RISC in their processors and like Apple' RISC (PPC)many replaced it out of their machines long ago for Intel processers. AMD was also a Hybrid-RISC back in the day.

It's one year behind the average devices that were shipping at christmas.
From what I saw, the reference platform performed better in most areas (browser, javascript, power) save GPU/video benchmarks. Like I said, I'd be interested in any info to the contrary. ARM currently has the edge, but Intel appears to be closing the gap.

thomas.wong1986 says

Kevin says

Dude, Intel's technology is *NOT* better than ARM designs.

ARM, Advanced RISC Machine, had great promise some 20+ years ago, but like UNIX, SoC, went no where in the consumer market. It may have a place in a niche market but not the big splash many wanted.

Today, Intel, with its CISC processers also incorporate RISC emulation (as they call it). So Intel already had RISC in their processors and like Apple' RISC (PPC)many replaced it out of their machines long ago for Intel processers. AMD was also a Hybrid-RISC back in the day.

There are more ARM based devices being sold in a single fiscal quarter than intel-based devices in an entire year.

But please continue explaining how ARM only has a "niche market but not the big splash many wanted".

EBGuy says

It's one year behind the average devices that were shipping at christmas.

From what I saw, the reference platform performed better in most areas (browser, javascript, power) save GPU/video benchmarks. Like I said, I'd be interested in any info to the contrary. ARM currently has the edge, but Intel appears to be closing the gap.

Intel's chips is going to ship "sometime later this year".

Their comparisons are against two-generation old processors (A5, OMAP, Exynos), which were built two years ago and started shipping about a year ago, and it still doesn't compare favorably (yes, on some benchmarks where x86 has inherent advantages it will, but overall it isn't impressive).

These devices don't compare at all to the A15 based chips (hell, they don't even compare to the quad core A9 chips with better GPUs).

So the best that they're going to be shipping (probably not until the fall) will be the equivalent of a three year old system. Meanwhile, A15 based chips will be what they're competing against.

Nobody is going to buy a slower phone that won't even run most of the apps where CPU performance even matters (i.e. games).

Intel will probably give their cpus away at cost (or below cost) in order to entice the more desperate / cheap OEMs. They will also probably start paying android game makers to build x86 APKs.

Is intel desperate enough to fight really hard on this? Yes, absolutely. But the major players in this game are all going integrated, and that means that there's nobody who's going to buy what intel's selling.

Kevin says

There are more ARM based devices being sold in a single fiscal quarter than intel-based devices in an entire year.
But please continue explaining how ARM only has a "niche market but not the big splash many wanted".

read for yourself... I rather enjoyed the speed (66 mhz) WoooooF!... but Intel didnt stand idle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reduced_instruction_set_computing#RISC_and_x86

RISC and x86

Despite many successes, RISC has made few inroads into the desktop PC and commodity server markets, where Intel's x86 platform remains the dominant processor architecture. There are three main reasons for this:

Hey dude, do you own a cellphone? Cable box? DVD player? TV?

These all run arm processors.

Learn something about consumer electronics before you post.

Kevin says

Hey dude, do you own a cellphone? Cable box? DVD player? TV?

These all run arm processors.

and aside from recent smart phones, have no more effective computing power than a toaster, what's your point.

Kevin says

Hey dude, do you own a cellphone? Cable box? DVD player? TV?
These all run arm processors.
Learn something about consumer electronics before you post.

Like many others back in the late 80s i did believe much of what you say today.. but it just hasnt happened and its time has passed by.

everyone is entering the mobile market.

thomas.wong1986 says

Kevin says

Hey dude, do you own a cellphone? Cable box? DVD player? TV?

These all run arm processors.

Learn something about consumer electronics before you post.

Like many others back in the late 80s i did believe much of what you say today.. but it just hasnt happened and its time has passed by.

Seriously, what the fuck are you talking about? Are you really so ignorant about consumer electronics that you're claiming that ARM's prevalence "hasn't happend"? Really? The chips that power every single smartphone, cable box, smart TV, GPS unit, tablet, and just about every other piece of consumer electronics "hasn't happened"?

There were over 1.5 *BILLION* ARM-powered devices sold last year, and less than 400 *MILLION* intel-powered devices.

Facts are weird things.

TPB says

and aside from recent smart phones, have no more effective computing power than a toaster, what's your point.

Huhwhat?

You guys really need to stop posting. It's clear that you don't know a thing about the modern processor market.

Kevin says

nd aside from recent smart phones, have no more effective computing power than a toaster, what's your point.

There is more computing power in your smart phone than there was in the Saturn V that landed the first man on the sun.

"Cable box? DVD player? TV?" has no less computing power than a toaster I stand by that.

A toaster, has one function toast a couple slices of toast.
Cable box, DVD player, TV also have one function displays content on the TV screen. none of these devices are multitasking devices.
And if there were hard analog switches on those devices, would you even miss the processor? No! The processor is just there to serve rudimentary functions. You're mentioning these devices, with a paltry arm processors, as proof Intel wont develop a viable mobile processor.

TPB says

A toaster, has one function toast a couple slices of toast.

One INTENDED function.

JodyChunder says

One INTENDED function.

That's why you make the BIG bucks.

Kevin says

The chips that power every single smartphone, cable box, smart TV, GPS unit, tablet, and just about every other piece of consumer electronics "hasn't happened"?

The embedded market been around a long long time and that is a niche market.. what hasnt happened was that RISC or ARM would dominate ALL Markets. By all past predictions, Intel should be dead by now, and all consumers/industries would be using devices using RISC ARM ..Laptop/Desktop/Servers/Electronics Goods etc etc etc.

Sometimes the best tech doesnt make it...

TPB says

One INTENDED function.

That's why you make the BIG bucks.

William E Baughb

I am a rich man, yes.

JodyChunder says

TPB says

One INTENDED function.

That's why you make the BIG bucks.

William E Baughb

I am a rich man, yes.

Yeah I know, that why I was all like "You go girl!"

but then you were all like...

"I'm Rich Bitch!"

TPB says

"Cable box? DVD player? TV?" has no less computing power than a toaster I stand by that.

A toaster, has one function toast a couple slices of toast.

Cable box, DVD player, TV also have one function displays content on the TV screen. none of these devices are multitasking devices.

And if there were hard analog switches on those devices, would you even miss the processor? No! The processor is just there to serve rudimentary functions. You're mentioning these devices, with a paltry arm processors, as proof Intel wont develop a viable mobile processor.

William E Baughb

No, I'd point to the success of ARM on mobile devices as proof of intel's difficulty in that market.

thomas.wong1986 says

The embedded market been around a long long time and that is a niche market.

You have it exactly backwards. The personal computer is the niche product, and even the best selling personal computer (i.e. the ipad) runs ARM. Smart phones alone outsell PCs.

I really don't understand how anyone could possibly believe that ARM is not the dominant processor architecture today.

Why is the world having such a difficult time hacking their code, to accommodate ARM if it's so damn great. Every damn thing is a hack and a work around at this point to accommodate, many flaws that are not only intrinsic to the from factor but for the multitasking limitations.

Don't kid your self, folks right now are just tickled pink that they can get a Video streamed to them over the internet at this point. But in the meantime, you're constantly having to go into running processes and kill things, because the email client is stuck and you can't access the internet using any other application. And the email isn't downloading messages either. People are tolerating it, because at this point the errors unlike Windows 95 early on, do not make every OS error apparent to the end user. Most users chalk 90% of their errors up to their provider. They don't seem to mind having to pull the battery to do a hard reset when things really get hairy. And the second reason people don't seem to get worked up over the phone and tablet's OS instabilities, are the MAC fan boys aren't bitching making an issue out of it. If Android was given half of the slack for their short comings, like the fanboys gave Windows 95, then it would all go back to the processors in them and their not ready for prime time implementation, the same processors running in iPhone.

I mean the phone and tablet implementation for what they are right now are cool But it gives moores law a clean slate to work with. And in the technical evolution of things, tablets and phones are where the Pentium 120 back in 1995, as far as the usefulness now, but the limitations of where we want it to go. That horse has barely out of the gate yet.

RISC and ARM were level contenders in the early days of the PC development. And what happened? They got hung up on all of the egg head technical limitations of what the current implementations are, and cheesy work around around those impediments, while Intel just kept pushing the envelope with new implementations, packaging, designs and concepts in their chips. I don't even think Microsoft, makes server builds for RISC anymore.

But the minute smart phones replace the PC with out addressing the limitations of feasible screen usage, to where concurrent processes can interact with each other, with out violating some computing code of chivalry then it's a one function at a time child's play toy.

Do you really think Intel is incapable of competing in this Suzie Bake market? There isn't a single device over 400, because the manufactures no what it is. The device that can replace my desktop and laptop will look more like a 3.5 external hard drive with various ports and wireless technologies, where input and output can communicate with other devices either be plugged in or OTA, and peripherals like printing and scanning can also be done.
a 5 or even 7 inch screen will never replace the Wintel desktop.

TPB says

Why is the world having such a difficult time hacking their code, to accommodate ARM if it's so damn great.

Why is having a difficult time of it? Certainly not anyone I know or work with -- and 90% of what I do is targeting ARM devices.

The rest of what you've posted is pure nonsense.

Do you really think Intel is incapable of competing in this Suzie Bake market? There isn't a single device over 400, because the manufactures no what it is.

I tried to parse this a dozen different ways, and none of them made sense.

a 5 or even 7 inch screen will never replace the Wintel desktop.

o_O

windows 8 is going to be running on ARM. A quarter of all PCs sold last year were ARM-based tablet computers.

The market for computers that need to draw so much power that they need to be plugged in all the time is rapidly declining. The next generation will just be specialized tools for professionals. That may be the only non-server area where Intel is still relevant.

data entry is just a small fraction of the PC usage in the workforce.
I don't see handhelds and tablets being anywhere near capable of developing software, CAD work, 3-D modeling and rendering, Database management, Graphic Design beyond red eye reduction and touch up macros, built into some cheesy photo management app. I could go on and on, listing reasons that the hand held is ill-equipped to replace the PC at this point.

TPB says

data entry is just a small fraction of the PC usage in the workforce.

I don't see handhelds and tablets being anywhere near capable of developing software, CAD work, 3-D modeling and rendering, Database management, Graphic Design beyond red eye reduction and touch up macros, built into some cheesy photo management app. I could go on and on, listing reasons that the hand held is ill-equipped to replace the PC at this point.

William E Baughb

A tiny, tiny fraction of computers are being used for professional use. The vast majority of time is spent just using a web browser to look at facebook or google.

Kevin says

A tiny, tiny fraction of computers are being used for professional use. The vast majority of time is spent just using a web browser to look at facebook or google.

Until they get an email from their boss requesting actual data. Then they do the butpucker waltz to their Intel box, running Windows, that's what Daddy does, when he has to make money. They always have to pull it together like an adult on a Windows box.

TPB says

Kevin says

A tiny, tiny fraction of computers are being used for professional use. The vast majority of time is spent just using a web browser to look at facebook or google.

Until they get an email from their boss requesting actual data. Then they do the butpucker waltz to their Intel box, running Windows, that's what Daddy does, when he has to make money. They always have to pull it together like an adult on a Windows box.

William E Baughb

Sorry, no. 90% of jobs do not require the use of a computer for anything other than basic data entry (and even most of that is done with external devices).

Most computer use today happens in the home (or while mobile), not in offices.

Software engineers, designers, architects, and the like will need professional tools. Cab drivers, construction workers, plumbers, and burger flippers do not.

Cab driver needs to scan those receipts and print driving logs.
Construction worker needs to use software that could be done on a hand held, but then how will you print out the output?
Plumbers need to log time and materials, track expenses, and print receipts and tax records. Most of which can be done on a hand held device.

The biggest limitation right now on tablet hand held computers, is the lack of printing capabilities, and other peripherals.

My smartphones and tablets are all perfectly capable of printing, thank you very much. They also support barcode scanners, document scanners, and just about any other peripheral you can imagine with a USB connection.

Kevin says

Sorry, no. 90% of jobs do not require the use of a computer for anything other than basic data entry (and even most of that is done with external devices).

I see you havent worked or been inside a corporate enterprise.

The only way for Intel to win and pay the "x86" tax on power versus ARM is to have a significant process advantage e.g. go to 14nm before others . However the fab business costs are increasing tremendously and they need to run at full capacity to break even so its not clear how that is going to play out.

All those 8 cores etc dont help much when software is hard to parallelize and the screen space is too small on mobile devices to have more than one application actively doing things.

They could maybe play in the tablet market.

thomas.wong1986 says

Kevin says

Sorry, no. 90% of jobs do not require the use of a computer for anything other than basic data entry (and even most of that is done with external devices).

I see you havent worked or been inside a corporate enterprise.

Wrong.

And very few jobs are in "the corporate enterprise".

Check the bls.

Kevin says

Wrong.

And very few jobs are in "the corporate enterprise".

Very few? The enterprise, was the industry before eMachines came along.
But it certainly didn't go anywhere, just every idiot got a computer, now many of those same idiots only have a smartphone or tablet.
If all you need to do is read chain mail, and keep current on the most recent viral videos, then you probably don't need a PC. But most companies still do. Though they are on Facebook now, when Wal-Mart tweets a picture of its Corporate Balls, then I'll say the PC is dead.

Kevin says

Wrong.
And very few jobs are in "the corporate enterprise".
Check the bls.

Quote to Cash and Procure to pay doesnt exist ? Material and Enterprise Resource Planning (MRP and ERP).. Supply Chain Management, Product Life Cycle management .. etc etc etc dont exist.

thomas.wong1986 says

Kevin says

Wrong.

And very few jobs are in "the corporate enterprise".

Check the bls.

Quote to Cash and Procure to pay doesnt exist ? Material and Enterprise Resource Planning (MRP and ERP).. Supply Chain Management, Product Life Cycle management .. etc etc etc dont exist.

I still can't tell if you're ignorant of the real world or are just being difficult.

What part of "90% of jobs" don't you understand?

Have you ever been out in the real world where real people live? The fraction of desk jockeys in this world is tiny.

Hell, even within the few jobs that need to deal with these apps, most of the clients work well (often, better) on a tablet or a smartphone anyway. If the client is already a web app (and most are), we're already well past needing such hardware.

Windows 7 sales surpassed 500 million copies this year. It was the highest grossing pre-order in Amazon's history (surpassing Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows). 60 Million people have bought Xbox 360s. 18 million people have bought the Kinect. 200 Million copies of Office 2010 alone have been sold.

This says a lot about the intel processor, considering Windows runs on it.

60 Million people have bought Xbox 360s.
At its heart, the Xenon processor used in Xboxes is a PowerPC chip surrounded by high performance floating point engines. So, chalk one up for RISC based architectures.

TPB says

Windows 7 sales surpassed 500 million copies this year. It was the highest grossing pre-order in Amazon's history (surpassing Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows). 60 Million people have bought Xbox 360s. 18 million people have bought the Kinect. 200 Million copies of Office 2010 alone have been sold.

This says a lot about the intel processor, considering Windows runs on it.

William E Baughb

There are *OVER ONE AND A HALF BILLION PHONES ALONE* sold *EVERY SINGLE YEAR*

I can't reiterate this enough.

PCs are a very small portion of consumer electronics devices.

Even windows is running on ARM now.

well who shops a link from a spam forum post you dick stick?
Jesus what a complete waste of time.
Why anyone would chose to spam cheap bastards on a forum dedicated to frugality, is beyond me.

Sorry that spammer got through. I manage to block 50 to 100 a day, but can't get them all.

Thanks for using the "Dislike" link! That tipped me off.

TPB says

Looks interesting, more smooth than the Snap dragon processor that's for sure.
The end says look for it in the next coming months.

They have been saying this for many years. You can always run things smoother consuming more power or running hotter. There is a reason MSFT decided to throw them under the bus on Windows. If intc had their act together the wintel monopoly would have continued with amd as a pretend competitor.

Now they have to deal with other 100Billion dollar companies like Samsung, Qualcomm in a real competition with pricing advantage for consumers. This may be a different ball game than small fry like AMD and NVDA. There is nothing special in their processor. The only way they can win is by going to 14nm before other people.