patrick.net

I think a $20,000 is sickening, especially for what 20K buys you these days in a car.

I'll never drive a new car, not at the current marketing paradigm.
Also 10 year old cars have never been more reliable. Even if you have to do major repair that costs $1200 or more once a year. Your still WAYYYYY ahead of the game. $1200 is your average car owner's 2 months worth of car payments. They are paying six times that a year.

And leasing cars? That is a con, that made $20,000 entry level cars possible. "Well I could pay 20K for a Ford focus, and have a $500 a month car payment or I could pay $299 a month and drive a Beamer I'll never own.

One could just look at how America markets cars, and get the idea we're not a nation of savers, with out even having to look at the bank interest rates. But that's another rant.

Hmm, you guys have me thinking about updating cars....

maybe to a 2001.

There's diminishing returns on older cars after a certain point. I see where my 1997 Camry at 220K+ miles is getting threadbare upholstery and a few ailments. Thinking to squeeze another 50K+ out of her though before I pull the eject handles.

The buying on time and leasing discourse is nothing new. Didn't Ellie Mae or someone here link an old 1950's British film where the upper class was tut-tutting about the lower classes some of whom were over-using "hire purchase"?

edvard2 says

Something that I think about a lot on the way to work is to what extent do people place importance on "what" they drive. I say this because living in the Bay Area its clear that either there is a lot of well-off people or maybe a lot of people spending a lot of their incomes on their cars. Prior to moving here from NC you'd be lucky if you saw a new Bimmer or even a new VW in a day. Yet on my way to work I must see at least 100+ brand-new luxury cars speeding down the freeway. We're talking $60,000-$90,000 cars.

I must be driving on the wrong freeways. I'd say this is true about LA, but less so about the Bay Area. I see far more people driving beat up Corollas and Civics and pickups than anything else.

$60-90K is very high level, by the way. For example, BMW 550 could be $60K, but 535 won't be (ditto Mercedes E-class -- E350 vs. E550). Theoretically a fully loaded Chevy Suburban would count, but other than that it'd have to be a Range Rover or Lexus LX or Land Cruiser to be that high as an SUV maybe. A Porsche Cayman wouldn't count, but a 911 would.

Then again, I did see 3 Ferraris in a row on Market Street in SF the other day.

There are definitely a LOT of expensive cars in the Bay Area- at least compared to anywhere else I've lived. Then again this was sort of true when I lived on the east coast as well. I think there's even a saying that Bimmers are more like Honda Civics around here because " Everyone has one"- thus they aren't exactly exclusive.

I have a 10 year old car too and have no plans on getting rid of it anytime soon. It only has 26,000 miles! Most peole I know with newer cars have way more mileage than I do.

New cars seem flimsy to me, just don't last as long. And new drivers seem to care more about superficial crap on their vehicles instead of real technology that has a purpose.

FortWayne says

New cars seem flimsy to me, just don't last as long. And new drivers seem to care more about superficial crap on their vehicles instead of real technology that has a purpose.

What are examples of this?

I've driven both older cars and newer cars (of the same vintage) and haven't noticed that new cars are less reliable. In fact, most newer cars have increased time between maintenance and many of their parts last longer.

What superficial crap do people get? What are examples of real technology with a purpose?

I'd also concur that newer cars aren't necessarily more flimsy. The same was said when I bought my old Toyota- that they weren't as good as cars made sometime in the past. Indeed the maintenance on newer cars is a lot less than older ones, as in the metallurgical technology as well as chemistry of modern coolants means you can go 100k-150k before changing the coolant. Course' I'd never go that long with mine, but it used to be that every 40k you changed the coolant and when you did what came out was rust water.

corntrollio says

What are examples of this?

I've seen a lots of complaints that later-generation Camry are not as robust as the Gen3/Gen4 units. Use of cheaper parts predominating is what I hear. I have an early Gen4 (1997) 220K+ miles and it's going great. Although I do wish they had used a timing CHAIN instead of a belt I've had to replace that flippin' belt too many times. I think I'll get rid of it before I have to replace it again. Air conditioning goes out again I'm just going to put in a free-spinning pulley and delete the compressor, fixing the silly thing is too expensive.

Vicente says

I've seen a lots of complaints that later-generation Camry are not as robust as the Gen3/Gen4 units. Use of cheaper parts predominating is what I hear. I have an early Gen4 (1997) 220K+ miles and it's going great. Although I do wish they had used a timing CHAIN instead of a belt I've had to replace that flippin' belt too many times.

I think people are getting lazier about maintenance, frankly. I have had cars that were considered "unreliable" where I spent very little on repairs compared to the purported average.

Nonetheless, it's entirely possible that Camrys have cheaper parts than in the past. Toyota has been cost cutting, like GM back in the 80s. My impression also was that you could abuse American cars and they'd still run okay, but Japanese cars would tend to break with abuse, although I have no way of knowing if that's true.

You will notice that most American-branded cars are more reliable than they were in the 80s. Lincoln, Cadillac, and Buick will challenge (and beat sometimes) any of the Japanese brands on reliability, and I think Ford isn't that far behind. Just check JD Power the last few years if you don't believe me.

edvard2 says

The same was said when I bought my old Toyota- that they weren't as good as cars made sometime in the past. Indeed the maintenance on newer cars is a lot less than older ones, as in the metallurgical technology as well as chemistry of modern coolants means you can go 100k-150k before changing the coolant.

There's all kinds of stuff like this. For example, some cars will tell you when they need an oil change, and the interval is often something with 5-digits in some cases -- every 10-12K miles. And sometimes when you pull that oil out, it looks clean, unlike cars of yore, just as edvard said about coolant.

Platinum spark plugs last longer and spark better later in life. Engines are made of better materials and are machined to higher tolerances (which means they run smoother, last longer, foul the oil less, burn fuel better, etc.). Exhaust systems are cleaner and exhaust parts last longer. Shocks are better than they used to be, and suspension geometry is far more sophisticated than the leaf springs of yore. Cars have more safety features like ABS and stability control that keep them out of more accidents. The list goes on.

edvard2 says

There are definitely a LOT of expensive cars in the Bay Area- at least compared to anywhere else I've lived. Then again this was sort of true when I lived on the east coast as well.

I don't doubt that there are necessarily more expensive cars in the Bay Area than in many other big cities. However, compared to NY and LA, I thought the Bay Area had a lot fewer expensive cars. Lots of my friends here in the Bay Area have decidedly down-market cars (and as I mentioned lots of beat up Civics, Corollas, and pickups), but my friends in LA know secretaries with a BMW 3-series or Mercedes C-Class, and certainly some out of work actors (aka waiters) with one too. Leasing is believed to be how they can make it work.

The issues with the Camry I believe were primarily for the 2006 model, and in particular the 2006 V6 automatic 6 speed transmission due to a faulty snap ring. That was it. As far as I know the issue was worked out. Other then that the car is still a great product. Toyota is sort of like the perfect straight-A kid in class where if they make any tiny mistake the issue is blown out of proportion. All I can say is that we've had a number of Toyotas and they ALL were nearly flawless. My Brother's Toyota now has over 300,000 miles on it. Can't really argue with that kind of success. I'd be willing to bet even now that you could spend 15k on the cheapest Toyota and it'll last just as long and run more reliably than any 90k Bimmer.

corntrollio says

You will notice that most American-branded cars are more reliable than they were in the 80s. Lincoln, Cadillac, and Buick will challenge (and beat sometimes) any of the Japanese brands on reliability, and I think Ford isn't that far behind. Just check JD Power the last few years if you don't believe me.

True... but I'd like to see what happens long term- as in 10 years on out because Ford and GM in particular basically "purged" their whole lineups as well as a lot of newer drivetrains- like engines that use direct injection and sophisticated engine management systems. GM got my respect for having some balls when they came out with the Volt, which is probably the most advanced car being made these days. Its also impressive that the Chevy Volt, which is a cheap econo-car comes packed with goodies, gets 40-45MPG, and actually looks nice too. Ford is doing well too. I am possibly considering a Cruze if I were to buy a new car ( not until after we've bought a house somewhere). Its pretty amazing what the Big 3 have come from just a few years ago when they were making a lot of junk and huge SUVS and trucks.

edvard2 says

Toyota is sort of like the perfect straight-A kid in class where if they make any tiny mistake the issue is blown out of proportion. All I can say is that we've had a number of Toyotas and they ALL were nearly flawless.

I don't think that's completely true. While Toyota has very good quality control, especially with fit and finish, and avoids the little tiny problems that people have with some cars (like VWs), when they have epidemic or catastrophic problems, it's as bad as anyone else. Just look at their recalls and things like that. Also, Toyota engines used to get a lot of carbon build-up, and this was a problem for more than a decade easily, maybe two -- not sure if they fixed those problems in more recent vehicles. My friends with first gen Priuses are starting to have the expensive repairs come up now too, since they are all out of warranty now (including the extended warranty for the drivetrain).

edvard2 says

My Brother's Toyota now has over 300,000 miles on it.

Sure, my old Fords/Lincolns were well above 200K, and one even had its original transmission after 200K. They probably would have run much longer, but they got old enough that Ford stopped carrying some of the parts, and I ended up getting another vehicle eventually. I don't think it's impossible for even supposedly unreliable cars to run that long, especially when well-maintained. Now if we're talking about British, French, or Italian cars, that's different. :)

corntrollio says

While Toyota has very good quality control, especially with fit and finish, and avoids the little tiny problems that people have with some cars (like VWs), when they have epidemic or catastrophic problems, it's as bad as anyone else. Just look at their recalls and things like that. Also, Toyota engines used to get a lot of carbon build-up, and this was a problem for more than a decade easily, maybe two -- not sure if they fixed those problems in more recent vehicles

I dunno... my Brother's car was "supposed" to be one of the engines that sludged-up badly. We replaced the timing belt last year. You have to remove the valve covers. Now- my Brother is really, really bad at maintenance. As in the oil gets changed when I remember- not him. So who knows how long it goes between changes. Anyway, the inside of the valve train was amazingly pristine. However, I do know one person that has had a Toyota engines sludge, a 97' Sienna. Then again they had failed to change the oil for well over 10,000 miles. That's not really the engine's fault because the owner was negligent of maintenance. Its just that in my family we've probably had 10-15 Toyotas and not a single one has ever had a serious issue. We beat the crap out of these cars and they just go, and go, and go. I'm not going to say that ALL Toyotas are flawless nor that others won't last as long. I have a friend with a 1990 Dodge Minivan that amazingly has 400,000 miles on it. But my ownership experience leads me to believe that Toyota's quality is good and consistently so.

That said... I think people's reasons for buying cars has changed. It seems to me that people used to buy Toyotas and Hondas because they were no-nonsense, fuel efficient, reliable vehicles. But now that they look just like everyone else- with all models now being HUGE compared to the same models from 20 years ago they lack that distinction. People seem to be magnetically drawn to cars for style now-aka- "Cute" or uber-expensive looking cars that are often times prone to mechanical problems.

Occasionally I wake up with the cold sweats at night. I have this reoccurring dream that they've revoked my CA residency because I drive a crappy car. Ya, I know what you mean...

Vicente says

I see where my 1997 Camry at 220K+ miles is getting threadbare upholstery and a few ailments.

I sold my 1994 Camry last year for $1800. Best little car I ever had, though it was developing problems.

Our second car is a 2007 Matrix, it's good (if noisy when driving), got it so my wife would have her first new car. I'll never buy a new car again. You're constantly worried about resale value, neverending monthly payments, etc. It was actually just stolen, then returned to the same neighborhood, but thankfully the kids or whomever took it, didn't do any damage except for ripping out the change drawer.

edvard2 says

Now- my Brother is really, really bad at maintenance. As in the oil gets changed when I remember- not him.

Once a gal I knew called me asking for a ride, her Volvo had been making noises, she stopped on the side of the road, but couldn't start it again. When I picked her up, I went around her car and asked her what went wrong.

She began to describe a "thunk-thunk-thunk" sound that started a few weeks ago. I asked her when the last time she got an oil change was.

She said, "What's an oil change?"

She had the car for years, and put maybe 50k miles+ on it, but never once got it serviced.

edvard2 says

my Brother's car was "supposed" to be one of the engines that sludged-up badly.

Ditto. I read about "sludge" problems in Toyota engines too. Pulled off my valve cover recently. Got the car at 110K, have driven it to 220K, and ZERO SLUDGE found. This IMO has to do with shitty maintenance or oil products, and idiots who blame it on the engine. The 5SFE engine block in particular is a tank and will probably outlive me. The accessory stuff that hangs off it is another matter....

Do you know what my biggest compliant on luxury cars is? They are not built as well as cheap cars and they cost a LOT more.

Take my 2003 Honda Civic LX for example, I had 100k miles on it before I replace the front tires and break pads. My wife leased a Infiniti GX37 two years ago and they are tell her she needs new breaks on the front, not to mention they squeak really bad. She asked the dealer about it and they told her they used a different material for the break pads on luxury cars and it tends to squeak more. So a cheap car lasted 7 years and 100k miles before needing new breaks as opposed to a car that cost twice as much, but the breaks barely last 2 years and 25k miles. That's Major BS in my opinion. Personally I'll stick with the cheaper cars, you can keep you Mercedes, BMW's and Infiniti's status symbols. A symbol of getting shafted I say.

TechGromit says

Do you know what my biggest compliant on luxury cars is? They are not built as well as cheap cars and they cost a LOT more.

Totally. In fact a quick glance at most any quality report shows pretty much all of the major Japanese manufactures up on top of that list with the American brands either almost as high or as high with almost all of the Euro brands at the bottom. I've known way too many people with a Mercedes or BMW that had some tiny little thing go wrong and the repair cost $3,000 or more. As said earlier, I can buy any crappy econo Toyota I want and it'll probably outlast most anything out there regardless of cost. That said, its apparent that people in the Bay Area are unperturbed by quality issues as you sure see an awful lot of those expensive, albeit less reliable luxury cars on the road.

The best way to buy a luxury car is to get a Toyota or Honda, and then just load it up with all the options. The interior will be comparable to the real luxury cars, but will be a fraction of the price. In most cases, a fully loaded Toyota is very comparable to Lexus. Most of their cars even use the same exact body. A Honda Accord and Acura TL? Exact same car. Chevy Suburban and Cadillac Escalade? Exact same car.

HousingWatcher says

I have a 10 year old car too and have no plans on getting rid of it anytime soon. It only has 26,000 miles! Most peole I know with newer cars have way more mileage than I do.

Er that's only an average of 50 miles of driving per week. (7 miles a day) You should consider getting out and seeing the world a little.

thunderlips11 says

She began to describe a "thunk-thunk-thunk" sound that started a few weeks ago. I asked her when the last time she got an oil change was.

She said, "What's an oil change?"

Reminds me of the story of the lady who put black tape over the engine idiot light that was red and it was annoying her. She ended up seizing the engine.

I think what's amazing to me is that these days a lot of the cheap econo-cars are pretty damned nice for what they cost. I test drove a chevy Cruze and it was loaded, had this color LCD touch-screen, killer stereo, nice interior, nice wheels and everything. Not bad at all for a car that's less than 20k. 10 years ago the features it has would've only been on top-of-the-line luxury cars.

"Er that's only an average of 50 miles of driving per week. (7 miles a day) You should consider getting out and seeing the world a little."

Yeah, but I live in NJ. Getting out here means seeing bumper to bumper traffic for hours at a time. Last Friday I spent 45 minutes in the Lincoln Tunnel!

TechGromit says

Do you know what my biggest compliant on luxury cars is? They are not built as well as cheap cars and they cost a LOT more.

You're actually wrong on that, at least, that's not monotonically true. Cadillacs do better on reliability. than other GMs. Lexus does better than other Toyotas. Infiniti does better than other Nissans. Lincoln does better than other Fords. You can see this in JD Power rankings generally, for example.

Also, while certain luxury German cars don't do as well on JD Power lists for reliability, drive one for an extended period of time and tell me they don't feel more solid, have fewer rattles, have better fit and finish, feel more stable at speed, etc. than many other cars. The normal wear and tear just doesn't beat them up as much as many other cars. A typical German car at 100K miles has far fewer rattles (if any) than a Ford at 50K from my experience. Compare an Audi or Mercedes convertible to a non-luxury convertible -- tell me if you'd feel comfortable driving the non-luxury convertible on the Autobahn -- even the fabric roofs are designed for 120+ mph travel.

TechGromit says

Take my 2003 Honda Civic LX for example, I had 100k miles on it before I replace the front tires and break pads. My wife leased a Infiniti GX37 two years ago and they are tell her she needs new breaks on the front, not to mention they squeak really bad. She asked the dealer about it and they told her they used a different material for the break pads on luxury cars and it tends to squeak more.

You don't know anything about cars if you think this is an identifiable problem with luxury cars. Brake pads are a wear item, dependent on type of pads, type of rotor (or drums), driving habits, type of vehicle, what type of roads you drive on, etc. Wear items have very little to do with the quality of a vehicle. If you thought the stock pads sucked, a non-dealer mechanic could have suggested other pads.

A Civic has basic brakes for a car -- adequate, nothing fancy. It is a great car, don't get me wrong. The G37 is a sports car and does have brakes that wear differently -- these are performance brakes made of different materials (prior G35s used Brembos which are typically even higher performance, but people complained about the squeaking and dust, so Infiniti switched them up in 2006 or so). Chalk this up to your ignorance about cars in general. You sound like those people who buy sports cars, do a lot of smoky burnouts, and then complain that the tires didn't last very long.

Also, consider that your wife might have different braking habits than you too. Does she drive in the city more? Does she drive in stop and go more? Does she ride the brakes more? Is one car an automatic and the other a manual?

By the way, 100K miles for front brakes seems unbelievable, frankly -- I think you're making that number up. I wouldn't be surprised if it was 100K for REAR brakes, but it seems highly implausible for front brakes, unless you drove on the open highway with the cruise control on for whole gas tanks at a time.

Don't believe ANYTHING your dealer tells you -- if the dealer says the sky is blue, you should go check because it's probably red, purple, orange, or black.

HousingWatcher says

In most cases, a fully loaded Toyota is very comparable to Lexus. Most of their cars even use the same exact body. A Honda Accord and Acura TL? Exact same car. Chevy Suburban and Cadillac Escalade? Exact same car.

Actually, this isn't quite true any more. A Toyota ES does share some common platform features with a Camry, but they are far different now than they were when Lexus first started as a nameplate in 1990, and the Lexus has better interiors and some additional features. The Honda Accord and Acura TL are similar and do share some parts, but Acura typically gets advanced features first and has higher quality interior materials. The difference between the Suburban and the Escalade is a little more subtle -- the Escalade has a bigger and more powerful engine (also found in the Yukon Denali I believe). There are different option choices and other things, and the quality of the parts is not necessarily the same, and the quality of the interior materials is usually not the same. Sometimes there are other differences under the skin -- e.g. better radiator, better transmission cooler, better differential or suspension geometry, that might result in more reliability or better performance. I believe this was the case for many Lincolns vs. Fords on the same platform , for example higher strength steel on the Lincoln. That said, there are some cars that are almost exactly the same; you just happened to pick some that weren't.

edvard2 says

I think what's amazing to me is that these days a lot of the cheap econo-cars are pretty damned nice for what they cost. I test drove a chevy Cruze and it was loaded, had this color LCD touch-screen, killer stereo, nice interior, nice wheels and everything.

The new Chevy Cruze is a great car. GM has hit the ball out of the park with that one -- this is not your father's econobox.

thunderlips11 says

She began to describe a "thunk-thunk-thunk" sound that started a few weeks ago. I asked her when the last time she got an oil change was.
She said, "What's an oil change?"
She had the car for years, and put maybe 50k miles+ on it, but never once got it serviced.

My daughter just got a "new" car. Her old (paid in full) one was making a horrible noise... Turned out she hadn't changed her oil. Ummm, turned out that she blamed it on the guy who serviced her car last june (2010), because he was supposed to change her oil at that time.

As her dad pointed out - now that she has a car payment - she should take care of this one because it would really suck to make payments on a car that doesn't work.

Now that she's learned about the wonders of getting your oil changed, next we gotta get her to change a tire...

corntrollio says

The new Chevy Cruze is a great car. GM has hit the ball out of the park with that one -- this is not your father's econobox.

It replaced the Cobalt. It's a nice little car with shit that keeps going wrong, including a power window that has a short in it (ya gotta hit the door a few times to get it to work sometimes) and is loud as shit. Unfortunately, I bought dad's econobox. At least it's roomy.

Ellie that sounds like a very expensive way to teach a teenager a lesson. Just take the initiative, do some maintenance with her. Show her the basics.

That's how we did it with ours.

Anymore, I see a jazzy car, and I mostly just see the monthly payment.

I have a photograph from 1994 -- a random shot from the window of my first apartment, which was an ancient cold water flat above a business on a busy intersection. The photo reveals a busy avenue and across from it, a full parking lot at the drug store/laundromat. Every car in the photo - save for an older model 3 series BMW - is a beater. I say beater with love...

Around this same time, I'd saved up some money and bought in cash what I thought would be my first foray into the land of nice, air conditioned conveyance -- a ten year-old BMW 5 series. Almost instantly, I experienced regular road rage from other drivers whenever I was out in that car. More so than at any other time when driving either my '68 VW Bug or the '65 Chrysler my girlfriend had at the time. It was almost like a social experiment to witness how night/day the different experiences were. Despite being a ten year-old 4 door, (ancient, by current standards), the readily apparent envy and resultant hostility that other drivers expressed was disturbing.

Flash forward to now and it's a very different story: If you drive an '89 Volvo, (like I do, and love), you are probably pitied as some woeful, low budget drifter who can't get any credit. I'm surprised other drivers don't try and fit quarters through the windows at stoplights. Meanwhile, my ancient Volvo and the little granny hovel I rent have allowed me some of the joys of solvency which remain mostly unknown pleasures to my colleagues in much finer sedans/digs.

somewhat related:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnWKz7Cthkk

corntrollio says

By the way, 100K miles for front brakes seems unbelievable, frankly -- I think you're making that number up.

Believe what you want. Actually the real number was 95k, I had them done when i had the timing belt changed. It's probably true I waited too long and wore them down to next to nothing. I had the front tires replaced at 80k. I live in South Jersey where there's not much bumper to bumper traffic. Also my type of driving may be a factor. When I see a red right ahead of me, let my foot off the gas and coast, some people zoom past and slam on the break at the last possible second. Another is when coming to off ramps from freeways, I coast into them, decelerating to 20 or 30 mph before applying the braking, instead of hitting the off ramp at 65 jamming on the breaks at the end of the ramp.

Car batteries are only suppose to be good for 5 years at the best conditions, but mine last 8 years on my Honda, until I had to replace it recently.

corntrollio says

You don't know anything about cars if you think this is an identifiable problem with luxury cars. Brake pads are a wear item, dependent on type of pads, type of rotor (or drums), driving habits, type of vehicle, what type of roads you drive on, etc.

I may not be a car expert, but to have to replace the break pads at 25k in way too soon in my opinion with country driving. 25k would be acceptable for city driving, but not for the type of driving my wife does. So far it seems to me luxury is another name to nickel and dime you to death. I replaced the air filters twice so far, the dealer wanted $50 each to change $10 filters.

TechGromit says

I may not be a car expert, but to have to replace the break pads at 25k in way too soon in my opinion with country driving.

The only way to run through brakes pads in 25k doing country driving, no matter what the make of car, is to drive with your foot resting on the brake a lot or to have a defective brakes that stick. Stop and go city driving it's very possible.

Battery life has zero to do with the make of car. Don't run them flat or really low and almost any modern battery will go that long. If you want a much better battery go with the optima gel type. I've used them since they came out in the mid 80's. I keep cars 10-15 years routinely and have had never had an optima go bad.

I'll have to disagree on brake pads. There's a wide variation in lifespans depending on what "type" of braking you want. Ceramic pads are the longest lasting, but noisiest. I would expect a luxury car to have quiet brakes using organic materials and much shorter lifespan. Also depends a lot on what a mechanic considers the "replacement point". Did they bend the squealer back and run it down to within a hair of the metal plate, or are they replacing with half the pad left?

The biggest burner of brake pads is high-speed braking. Every time you hit your brakes at 55+ the wear is many factors larger than the same braking at lower city speeds. There are a fair number of 2-footed drivers out there that always have the left foot resting "just a little" on the brake pedal.

If everyone drove an old beater car imagine how bad the recession would be?

Personal consumption is like what 70% of the economny? so if that were reduced to say 20% of the economy bY 'mass frugality' we would never recover, never grow out of it - society collapses.

Basically these people in the nice cars are preventing the cannibal anarchy apolocalpse. You people in the 20 year old civic are trying to destroy society.

CreatE some jobs, at least buy a new civic for $%%# sake!

The idoit protestors on wall street should shud up and get jobs as car salesmen if they wanna help us. Hows that for a plan?

Lets remember 'cash for clunkers' - the democrats plan to destroy all old cars and make us buy new ones. nice! That was a nice giveaway to the unions.

PockyClipsNow says

Basically these people in the nice cars are preventing the cannibal anarchy apolocalpse. You people in the 20 year old civic are trying to destroy society.

BRING IT ON!

Who runs BarterTown? Ellie Mae runs BarterTown!

My take is that the Bay area has three major factors that influence the car decision. One is the hippies---it's popular on the liberal circuit to drive an old car in perpetuity, or buy a Hybrid as a sign that you're sufficiently concerned about the environment.

Secondly, is the higher median income here. Some of the choices that the plebes have to make in the rest of the country just don't apply here. A few hundred bucks for a nice car doesn't matter to someone making 6 figures, generally.

Now, I know that 6 figures here is not a big deal since we also have a high cost of living. That's why I'd say that the high rent/mortgage costs also influence this.

If one spends a few thousand on housing per month, why would a $200 differential on a car matter to you? When your rental alone may be $2500, the change in your monthly payment on cars is negligible.

When we lived in Chicago, my wife put a lot of effort into deciding on a/c, power locks, CD player etc---and this wasn't THAT long ago. Total difference in monthly payment was like $10 for each.

Here a sandwich is $10. But the price of cars is not proportionally that much higher than in the Midwest. Still, my Midwestern sensibilities keeps me in Camry or other boring Sedans.

elliemae says

It replaced the Cobalt. It's a nice little car with shit that keeps going wrong, including a power window that has a short in it (ya gotta hit the door a few times to get it to work sometimes) and is loud as shit. Unfortunately, I bought dad's econobox. At least it's roomy.

Yeah, although the Cobalt SS was a fun car. :)

Zlxr says

Now they don't even sell small trucks here anymore. What happened?

They do, they've just gotten a little bigger. Toyota makes the Toyota Tacoma. It makes them in Texas (and used to make them in California before NUMMI closed) because of the Chicken Tax.

TechGromit says

Car batteries are only suppose to be good for 5 years at the best conditions, but mine last 8 years on my Honda, until I had to replace it recently.

You realize that Honda doesn't make the battery right? It has absolutely NOTHING to do with the type of car. Batteries are another one that can have variable lifetimes depending on the nature of the use, and certainly some can last longer. I have had 6+ years on a luxury make and have had batteries fail at 3 years on non-luxury makes. If you care that much, get a replacement battery with a longer life -- very easy to do, and relatively cheap.

TechGromit says

I replaced the air filters twice so far, the dealer wanted $50 each to change $10 filters.

So replace them yourself. It's not very hard. Your mistake is paying dealer rates. The problem with dealerships is that you only get to talk to sales people -- I prefer to talk to my mechanic about my car's repair, not a salesperson.

Yes, Infiniti dealers charge more for service than Nissan dealers most likely. If you really want to go to a dealership for service on your G37, you would be better off taking your Infiniti to a Nissan dealership for service -- they'll do it for a better hourly rate most likely. This is a secret tip that lots of people don't know about -- Nissan dealerships will generally service Infinitis. The Nissan Z is basically a 2-seat version of the Infiniti G35/G37, and there are some parts that are shared (although the Infiniti, as a "luxury car," has a quieter exhaust which gives it slightly lower horsepower vs. the Z and there are probably some suspension tweaks, among other changes). The G35/G37 coupe is actually based more directly on the Z, which is why it's wider than the sedan (or saloon to you Brits).

Austinhousingbubble says

Despite being a ten year-old 4 door, (ancient, by current standards)

Actually, a few years ago, I believe the average car was 9 years old, and in the current recession, it's possible the number went up. (10.2 years was average recently: http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2010/03/average-age-of-vehicles-in-the-us-highest-in-15-years/1 )

Vicente says

There's a wide variation in lifespans depending on what "type" of braking you want. Ceramic pads are the longest lasting, but noisiest. I would expect a luxury car to have quiet brakes using organic materials and much shorter lifespan. Also depends a lot on what a mechanic considers the "replacement point". Did they bend the squealer back and run it down to within a hair of the metal plate, or are they replacing with half the pad left?

Exactly right. Most mechanics should suggest changing pads with approximately 10% of life left, although it may depend on your mechanic and your driving habits. My guy will warn me at 10%, but knows I keep a close eye on my car, so he will tell me to come in soon because it's at 10%, no immediate rush (especially if it's my car that gets driven very little), whereas he may tell someone else to change them now.

But Vicente is exactly right that different pads have different lifespans and different braking capabilities and are made of different materials. Trying to assert that brakepads are a sign of car quality is silly -- they cost almost nothing and can generally be easily replaced for something longer lasting if you'd like that tradeoff vs. stock. No joke, some people optimize for dust caused by brake pads, because they want their fancy rims to look clean for longer. To each their own.

Vicente says

The biggest burner of brake pads is high-speed braking. Every time you hit your brakes at 55+ the wear is many factors larger than the same braking at lower city speeds.

Yes, kinetic energy is proportional to the square of speed. So 60mph is 4X more KE than 30mph and 16X more KE than 15mph. It's possible there are other factors too that come into play, e.g. friction coefficients, what materials your rotors and pads are, how hard you hit the brakes (e.g. panic stop vs. not).

E-man says

Anyways, wife got sandwiched between a 10-wheeler and a van in her E430 last summer, and let me tell you. That car was solid. After the accident, wife doesn't want to drive any other car other than a Mercedes so we bought her an E350. We look at it as buying insurance. Simple as that. Can't take the money with you if you get crushed in a car accident.

This can be a good reason to buy a car. Some luxury cars do have better crash performance ratings, although not always. Look at the IIHS and other benchmarkers on this -- there is a lot of data out there, and the simplified star ratings don't always tell the whole story.

Look, this is not to say every luxury brand is better than every non-luxury brand. That's not true at all. There are differences even within a manufacturer's own line. But to assert the reverse is making the exact same logical flaw. And to assert they are exactly the same is yet another flaw.

"When we lived in Chicago, my wife put a lot of effort into deciding on a/c, power locks, CD player etc---and this wasn't THAT long ago."

What car did she buy? There is currently no car on the market with optional AC and power locks. AC has not been an option for many many years...

HousingWatcher says

What car did she buy? There is currently no car on the market with optional AC and power locks. AC has not been an option for many many years...

Well, no common car, probably. You can get certain sports cars as racing models, where they are stripped down very heavily to reduce weight, and sometimes they have crank-windows and no A/C and no radio, and lack other things that would add unnecessary weight.

I was shocked that there were 2006 model year cars that still had tape players.

Vicente says

Air conditioning goes out again I'm just going to put in a free-spinning pulley and delete the compressor, fixing the silly thing is too expensive.

Wouldn't it be cheaper to remove the A/C and get a smaller serpentine belt? Plus less weight too.

I'm currently considering doing this on my beater since I can't find where my r134a leak is.

PockyClipsNow says

If everyone drove an old beater car imagine how bad the recession would be?

Personal consumption is like what 70% of the economny? so if that were reduced to say 20% of the economy bY 'mass frugality' we would never recover, never grow out of it - society collapses.

Basically these people in the nice cars are preventing the cannibal anarchy apolocalpse. You people in the 20 year old civic are trying to destroy society.

CreatE some jobs, at least buy a new civic for $%%# sake!

Buying all those imported cars isn't helping the US economy either.

corntrollio says

Also, while certain luxury German cars don't do as well on JD Power lists for reliability, drive one for an extended period of time and tell me they don't feel more solid, have fewer rattles, have better fit and finish, feel more stable at speed, etc. than many other cars. The normal wear and tear just doesn't beat them up as much as many other cars. A typical German car at 100K miles has far fewer rattles (if any) than a Ford at 50K from my experience. Compare an Audi or Mercedes convertible to a non-luxury convertible -- tell me if you'd feel comfortable driving the non-luxury convertible on the Autobahn -- even the fabric roofs are designed for 120+ mph travel.

Yep, quality has many -- uh -- qualities. Remember AMC? Maybe misaligned upholstery seams or body panels which can't be perfectly aligned and, for sure, they all swayed in the wind and generally drove kinda funky. But they ran. And ran and ran and ran. I have friends who I help work on cars. Back in the day, a couple of them had AMC cars. I don't think any other cars at the time had more durable drive trains than the AMCs. i know I was still seeing the occasional AMC daily driver until about 15 years ago. I doubt the owners were putting any money into these cars.

Contrast that with the 2005 Neon I inherited. It drives great. It handles very well and the engine is responsive and powerful for it's size. The fit and finish is excellent. But in the last three months I've had a tie rod end break without warning, a rear wheel bearing has failed and the transmission cooler blew out, leaving me stranded as I watched a strawberry milkshake mix of coolant and ATF pour onto the street. This seems to be a design flaw in these (expensive) radiators. To compound the problem, the ATF can ruin the rubber seals in the heater core. I'll have to evacuate the AC, pull the dash and steering column to get to the core they built the rest of the car around. And the engine has developed a piston slappy sound on cold starts.

I'll probably pull the seats as well, so I can lie back in relative comfort as I curse out Daimler/Chrysler and their design which makes a wonderful impression but fails on long term durability and economy.

zzyzzx says

Wouldn't it be cheaper to remove the A/C and get a smaller serpentine belt? Plus less weight too.

Well yeah you could do it that way sure. I haven't researched price actually, I would think a bracket and pulley should be cheap but I could be wrong. From my lurking on ToyotaNation swapping for a pulley is the usual way to do AC delete operation. Then all replacements are just walk into any store and ask for the standard belt for that year model. If you want to start removing weight, there's a lot you could do without worrying about a few pounds for a pulley. Haven't done it myself but there's a lot of folks who do carbon hoods, remove rear seats and so on to draw down the weight. Not my thing. I have thought about a home-made front air dam though to improve aerodynamics, just takes some cheap ABS and some cutting and fitting.

Vicente says

Air conditioning goes out again I'm just going to put in a free-spinning pulley and delete the compressor, fixing the silly thing is too expensive.

Why? The compressor is a free spinning pulley until the clutch engages. Just pull the wire to the clutch. Even if the compressor locks up, if the clutch isn't energized it should spin free. Modern compressors are very efficient and are much lighter. They don't really drop gas mileage when running like the older units used to so there really isn't much penalty for having the air on any more.

Cook County resident says

I'll have to evacuate the AC, pull the dash and steering column to get to the core they built the rest of the car around.

I have never done a heater core on an air conditioned car where you didn't have to pull the dash. It's pretty common.