patrick.net

New Renter says

On the other hand has your neurosurgeon been able to reproduce his experience?

Well at least he got a book out of it.

thats the interesting part of these experiences. how identical from many difference people across the globe ... all are down to the out of body experiences over the past several decades as lives have been pulled out from death and near death.

Yes, I had heard of Dr. Alexander's NDE. NDE's are fairly common, aren't they?

I tend to believe his story. (Who would believe someone like me who says they "passed out" and didn't even notice?)

I'm skeptical that Alexander's experience is "proof" of an actual afterlife, however. Which afterlife would it proove? The Christian one? The Muslim one? The Buddhist one? None of the above?

curious2 says

The facts, however, remain what they are - whether we believe them or
not. If the light in the tunnel is in fact an approaching train, then no
matter what you might believe about it, reaching out your arms to embrace it
will in fact yield very different results compared to stepping out of its
path.

Precisely my point. I thought "truth" and "facts" were essentially synonyms, but language is always changing...

You can't scientifically prove or disprove someone's personal experience. You can only believe or cast doubt. If you have the right credentials after your name and scream loud enough, if you get enough positive publicity from "people who matter," then you can claim to disprove or debunk. But, if truth is objective, you can't disprove it with hand waving and speculation. If truth is subjective, you're absolutely unable to disprove anyone's version of it.

I've experienced the "nothing" of unconsciousness during surgery. And passed out a couple times. But I don't think it was like death. More a suppression of consciousness than elimination of it.

Quigley says

You can't scientifically prove or disprove someone's personal experience. You can only believe or cast doubt.

Sure you can. If I take 5,000 people and poke 1/2 of them with a pointy stick vs. poking the other half with a blunt stick I'm pretty sure I'll be able to determine to a high degree of confidence which stick hurts more.

New Renter says

Sure you can. If I take 5,000 people and poke 1/2 of them with a pointy stick
vs. poking the other half with a blunt stick I'm pretty sure I'll be able to
determine to a high degree of confidence which stick hurts more.

Good point.

That's one of the reasons I started this thread. People "pass out" all the time. Is my experience of "not even noticing" rare or common? That's what I'm asking.

When I sleep, I usually have a sense of darkness and time...probably because it takes a finite amount of time of laying around with my eyes closed before I actually "fall asleep." Plus it's possible to dream, which usually involves a sensation of time (for me at least).

But my experience at the doctor's office was totally different. I didn't have any sensation of time or darkness. The nurses said I was out for 20 or 30 seconds, but I didn't even notice.

Quigley says

You can't scientifically prove or disprove someone's personal experience.

Sometimes you can disprove it, as James Frey's fictional "memoir" was disproved, and as Luke Dittrich disproved Eben Alexander's claims (for example, hospital staff said Alexander was in a conscious but delirious medicated state at the time he claimed to have had no brain activity). As in many professions, there are honest practitioners and dishonest ones. The NT instructs believers to be credulous even if they are called fools, and that has made them easy prey for charlatans.

Quigley says

I've experienced the "nothing" of unconsciousness during surgery.

But how is it possible to experience "nothing?" Isn't "nothing" a *lack* of experience?

For example, there was *nothing* before I was born...at least as far as I can tell. I don't remember any kind of experience of anything.

I guess it all gets down to semantics. ;-)

curious2 says

Your past suffering illustrates a too common pattern: the business of many
religions is to frighten small children and sell them a doctrine of
institutional obedience and service, including money. Eventually, many people
manage to see through it, after wasting a lot of money and suffering needlessly.

All social movements (whether religious or secular) have their "true believers." If I remember correctly, Patrick actually linked to a book on the subject.

In my case, I was indoctrinated into a "true believer" in my respective social movement from a a young age. It's a situation I was essentially born into.

Social movements typically have symbols. The Christians have their crosses, the Muslims have their crescent moons; the Gay Rights movement has its rainbows and equal-signs.

As for which social movements are "good" and which ones are "bad," those are questions for the ages.

mmmarvel says

The sad thing is that people who believe in afterlife will never know they were wrong.


It seems unfair.

And on the flip side, if they are correct ... you'll end up in a heap of trouble.

Yes, but that's potentially true for everyone.
Suppose you're a good christian and muslims have it right.
Then you're in a heap of trouble...

Heraclitusstudent says

mmmarvel says

Heraclitusstudent says

The sad thing is that people who believe in afterlife will never know they were wrong.
It seems unfair.

And on the flip side, if they are correct ... you'll end up in a heap of trouble.

Yes, but that's potentially true for everyone.
Suppose you're a good christian and muslims have it right.
Then you're in a heap of trouble...

That's Simpson's Rebuttal to Pascal's Wager:

freak80 says

I thought "truth" and "facts" were essentially synonyms, but language is always changing...

Truth are facts: if they relate to a tangible universe that is shared by all participants.

I assume this universe exists, though I can't prove it does.

curious2 says

That's Simpson's Rebuttal to Pascal's Wager:

I suspect the rebuttal predated the Simpsons.

New Renter says

You can't scientifically prove or disprove someone's personal experience. You can only believe or cast doubt.

Sure you can. If I take 5,000 people and poke 1/2 of them with a pointy stick vs. poking the other half with a blunt stick I'm pretty sure I'll be able to determine to a high degree of confidence which stick hurts more.

Personal experience is all we have. But it's a subjective thing.

You can't know for certain what other people experience except by assuming it is the same as you would experience in the same situation, or trying to infer how they feel based on how they behave.

Heraclitusstudent says

Personal experience is all we have. But it's a subjective thing.

Which can be scary. Ultimately, how do I know that I'm not alone in the universe? Or, how do I know that reality isn't just a computer simulation (like in those Matrix movies)?

Touch the back of your neck and see if there is a usb socket there....

freak80 says

Heraclitusstudent says

Personal experience is all we have. But it's a subjective thing.

Which can be scary. Ultimately, how do I know that I'm not alone in the universe? Or, how do I know that reality isn't just a computer simulation (like in those Matrix movies)?

SoftShell says

Touch the back of your neck and see if there is a usb socket there....

Love it!

But couldn't the computer simulation make it impossible for me to notice it? ;-)

Now that i've had half a cup, I forgot the simulation people did not have the sockets....no way to tell....we are fucked.

freak80 says

SoftShell says

Touch the back of your neck and see if there is a usb socket there....

Love it!

But couldn't the computer simulation make it impossible for me to notice it? ;-)

I'm wondering if the following statement is accurate scientifically:

"It is impossible to experience one's own death."

That statement seems to make sense. After all, I never "experienced" not being born. But I'm still making an argument from personal experience and not actual science.

Are there any neurologists out there who want to weigh in?

So logic dictates you buy into a mutual fund of religions. spread the risk around so you don't get hurt. believe in anything and everything!

Heraclitusstudent says

mmmarvel says

The sad thing is that people who believe in afterlife will never know they were wrong.



It seems unfair.

And on the flip side, if they are correct ... you'll end up in a heap of trouble.

Yes, but that's potentially true for everyone.

Suppose you're a good christian and muslims have it right.

Then you're in a heap of trouble...