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Stockton bankruptcy ruling could deal blow to CalPERS, public pensions


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2014 Oct 1, 12:40pm   30,748 views  91 comments

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71   tatupu70   2014 Oct 6, 5:21am  

If your entire argument is that some pensions are abused and some are too generous, then I agree. I don't think you'll find too many in opposition.

You run into trouble when you try to make broad generalizations.

72   tatupu70   2014 Oct 6, 5:23am  

socal2 says

Why should government workers have a guaranteed retirement above all the other interests in the City that is going bankrupt? This arrangement causes alot of suffering for far more people than just a few thousand government workers in Stockton.

Because that was part of the agreement when they were hired.

73   socal2   2014 Oct 6, 5:23am  

tatupu70 says

Minimum?? Since when does average = minimum? If the average lifespan is 80,
that means half of the people will not collect for even 29 years.

Fair enough - but considering that most government workers in Stockton got gold plated health care plans, have fairly stress free jobs (cops excluded), and can retire early - I'm willing to bet that most live above the average.

And we can certainly expect workers working today will live longer than 80 as life expectency keeps getting older.

74   socal2   2014 Oct 6, 5:29am  

tatupu70 says

Because that was part of the agreement when they were hired.

What about the "agreement" that tax payers had that their city wouldn't be run into the toilet with reduced services, higher taxes, higher crime and years of uncertainty with bankruptcy? I am pretty sure that bond holders didn't agree to get $0.01-$0.10 returns on the dollar either.

Bankruptcy is all about breaking agreements when reality hits. Pensions shouldn't be immune because the unions were able to get their slaves in the Democrat party to codify this in our state constitution.

75   JH   2014 Oct 6, 5:29am  

socal2 says

One of the most corrupt things with government pensions is that workers are *guaranteed* that payout regardless of market reality. If CALPERS can't provide returns high enough to fund these pension committments, the cities just raise taxes, cut services and bankrupt cities to keep that pension guarantee going.

This argument sounds good on the surface but you are looking at it from the standpoint of a typical 401k, which is as follows:

The average 401(k) balance hit $89,300 at the end of the year, up 15.5% from $77,300 in 2012, according to an annual tally by Fidelity Investments.

People on the verge of retirement, ages 55 to 64 years old, saw their nest eggs grow to an average balance of $165,200 from $143,300 in 2012

http://money.cnn.com/2014/02/13/retirement/401k-balances/

It doesn't seem possible that 30 years would be sufficient to return enough to retire on interest, but it is, if you save more than a couple bucks here and there.

76   socal2   2014 Oct 6, 5:31am  

tatupu70 says

If your entire argument is that some pensions are abused and some are too
generous, then I agree. I don't think you'll find too many in opposition.

I'm willing to bet that the majority of California State and Municipal Democrat politician are against this ruling arguing that no pensions can be cut - regardless of the circumstances.

77   tatupu70   2014 Oct 6, 5:38am  

socal2 says

What about the "agreement" that tax payers had that their city wouldn't be run into the toilet with reduced services, higher taxes, higher crime and years of uncertainty with bankruptcy?

Do you have a copy of that agreement?

socal2 says

I am pretty sure that bond holders didn't agree to get $0.01-$0.10 returns on the dollar either.

I'm pretty sure bondholders were aware of the risks of loaning money to Stockton. Or they should have been-that's for sure.

socal2 says

Bankruptcy is all about breaking agreements when reality hits. Pensions shouldn't be immune because the unions were able to get their slaves in the Democrat party to codify this in our state constitution.

There are a lot of things that shouldn't be allowed, but are. This is way down the list for me.

78   tatupu70   2014 Oct 6, 5:41am  

socal2 says

Fair enough - but considering that most government workers in Stockton got gold plated health care plans, have fairly stress free jobs (cops excluded), and can retire early - I'm willing to bet that most live above the average.

I think we're at the crux of your outrage. You think government workers have easy jobs and are overpaid. I don't think you're qualified to make that determination.

79   socal2   2014 Oct 6, 5:45am  

tatupu70 says

There are a lot of things that shouldn't be allowed, but are. This is way
down the list for me.

Really? The single biggest liability most cities have on their books is the lowest priority for reform? I thought you were just saying that Stockton and Vallejo need to reform their six figure pensions?

This is to say nothing about the terrible corruption feedback loop where our tax dollars are being funneled to public sector unions (in the forms of dues) who in turns funnels it back to the Democrat party to get more Democrats elected to protect the unions and government bureaucracy.

Could Democrats hold a near monopoly on California politics if they weren't getting millions of tax dollars from unions to get them elected?

80   socal2   2014 Oct 6, 5:53am  

tatupu70 says

I think we're at the crux of your outrage. You think government workers have
easy jobs and are overpaid. I don't think you're qualified to make that
determination.

As I said earlier in the thread, I have spent over 20 years as an engineering consultant working directly for municaplities in California trying to improve their water systems. I was there when many of my clients were celebrating after they got their pension plans massively increased in the late 1990's.

I've watched over the last 20 years as funding for infrastructure continues to get stripped in lieu of funding the general funds and pension liabilities.

I've seen massive administration bloat and ridiculous PC contracting requirements for MBE's and other social engineering.

At least when it comes to Public Works and Engineering, I have seen my fair share of waste and abuse.

81   MisdemeanorRebel   2014 Oct 6, 6:00am  

socal2 says

Cops have a much harder job than firefighters IMO.

And sanitation, road, and bus workers higher than either.

82   tatupu70   2014 Oct 6, 6:02am  

socal2 says

Really? The single biggest liability most cities have on their books is the lowest priority for reform? I thought you were just saying that Stockton and Vallejo need to reform their six figure pensions?

OK--slow down and think through my statements. Yes, I agree with thunder that pensions over $100K need to be reformed. I would argue that the pension for new hires be immediately changed to a more sustainable level with rules in place to prevent spiking.

That's different than pulling the rug out from under someone who has carefully planned for retirement expecting his pension payments. Someone who could have found work in the private sector, if he so chose, but instead worked for the public sector for exactly the reason of the pension plan.

socal2 says

This is to say nothing about the terrible corruption feedback loop where our tax dollars are being funneled to public sector unions (in the forms of dues) who in turns funnels it back to the Democrat party to get more Democrats elected to protect the unions and government bureaucracy.

Come on-how is that any different than our tax dollars going to Haliburton, then funneled back to the Republican party PACs to get more conservatives elected to protect the War Machine.

socal2 says

Could Democrats hold a near monopoly on California politics if they weren't getting millions of tax dollars from unions to get them elected?

Could Republicans get elected if they weren't getting millions of tax dollars from government contractors to get them elected?

83   tatupu70   2014 Oct 6, 6:03am  

socal2 says

I've seen massive administration bloat and ridiculous PC contracting requirements for MBE's and other social engineering.

At least when it comes to Public Works and Engineering, I have seen my fair share of waste and abuse.

And I've seen the same in every private company as well.

84   socal2   2014 Oct 6, 6:11am  

tatupu70 says

Come on-how is that any different than our tax dollars going to Haliburton,
then funneled back to the Republican party PACs to get more conservatives
elected to protect the War Machine.

Because public sector unions are #2 and #3 largest political donors in our politics and give almost 100% of their contributions (our tax dollars) to Democrats.

Whereas, Haliburton is not even in the top 200. The Koch Bros aren't even in the top 50. The rest of the military contractors spread the wealth pretty equally between Republicans and Democrats.

https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php

85   JH   2014 Oct 6, 6:18am  

tatupu70 says

I would argue that the pension for new hires be immediately changed to a more sustainable level with rules in place to prevent spiking

Already happening.

86   humanity   2014 Oct 6, 6:23am  

socal2 says

Because public sector unions are #2 and #3 largest political donors in our politics and give almost 100% of their contributions (our tax dollars) to Democrats.

What percentage of all workers are public sector ? Don't you think labor deserves a voice in our politics ? Caution must be taken against abuse of that voice, as it should with corporations.

socal2 says

Whereas, Haliburton is not even in the top 200

Which makes the amount of influence they've been able to buy all that much more impressive.

In the battle between Capital and Labor, Labor is losing big time. But apparently not enough in your opinion.

87   humanity   2014 Oct 6, 6:25am  

JH says

tatupu70 says

I would argue that the pension for new hires be immediately changed to a more sustainable level with rules in place to prevent spiking

Already happening.

The California laws against spiking, which often happens toward the end of ones career have been put in place for existing workers, not just new hires.

88   tatupu70   2014 Oct 6, 7:11am  

socal2 says

Because public sector unions are #2 and #3 largest political donors in our politics and give almost 100% of their contributions (our tax dollars) to Democrats.

Whereas, Haliburton is not even in the top 200. The Koch Bros aren't even in the top 50. The rest of the military contractors spread the wealth pretty equally between Republicans and Democrats.

https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php

If you read the preface, you'd understand why. Here is a better list (from the same source):

https://www.opensecrets.org/bigpicture/topcontribs.php

89   FortWayne   2014 Oct 6, 7:23am  

JH says

tatupu70 says

I would argue that the pension for new hires be immediately changed to a more sustainable level with rules in place to prevent spiking

Already happening.

Not really. Unions aren't letting that happen. The system is bound to run out of money sooner or later. So every year they'll look for more taxes, they'll call them "revenues". And make all kinds of proposals increasing taxes, and reducing benefits taxpayers get out of their taxes.

There's another thing, it's how you can tell when a radio channel or tv station is a commie rag, they will refer to taxes as "revenues". All in order to deceive an average American, and to sucker them into paying more to get less while government spends on their lavish excesses.

90   JH   2014 Oct 6, 7:27am  

FortWayne says

Not really. Unions aren't letting that happen. The s

No actually it is. This thread is about calpers.

91   socal2   2014 Oct 6, 7:31am  

tatupu70 says

If you read the preface, you'd understand why. Here is a better list (from
the same source):

Your list says it doesn't include money spent on issue ads which alot of public sector union money goes to to lobby for propositions to raise our taxes.

Also Act Blue still is the highest contributor by a mile and is pretty much a clearing house for trial lawyers supporting democrats.

Also notice how the big Wall Street money like Goldman Sachs switches parties from one election to the next (2008-2012). Alot of this big money are opportunists supporting whoever they think will win that particular election to garner influence. Whereas the public sector unions support Democrats nearly 100% year after year using *our tax money*.

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