patrick.net

P N Dr Lo R says

We defeated Communism

Now religion is a political horse. That makes the extortion scheme more interesting. If you don't believe, you're a communist.

That's stupidity and gullibility.
There is nothing of substance concerning the fear of a 'hell', hence no 'extortion'.

Dan8267 says

SoftShell says

So what's the 'unlawful' component that qualifies religion as 'extortion'?

Dan8267 says

Extortion? Yes.

Some forms of extortion are legal. For example, making people fear they will be torture forever after they die if they don't subscribe into your religion and financially support it.

Heraclitusstudent says

If you don't believe, you're a communist

In the Soviet Union, to which I was referring, you were. Another principle that seems true is that like Mary's lamb, where atheism goes, the welfare state can't be far behind since it's the ultimate source of benevolence.

dodgerfanjohn says

The intense dislike of religion by some posters

The word "religion" should be replaced by "Christianity" to be more accurate.

SoftShell says

That's stupidity and gullibility.

There is nothing of substance concerning the fear of a 'hell', hence no 'extortion'.

I was taught about hell from a young age, by my own parents and by my church. And everyone around me believed it was real. So I believed it was real.

Delusion is a powerful thing.

Quigley says

I'm not a Muslim and it bothers me not one theological bit that the Quran says I'm an infidel because I don't follow the teachings of a long dead pervert of a camel jockey.

Why should an atheist care that they won't be included in a Christian heaven? Unless they have serious unresolved issues with their own beliefs and identity, they wouldn't.

The point of that comment should have been obvious by the context: I was responding to the claim that churches don't teach hell and condemnation. Many of them do, because Jesus himself taught hell and condemnation. Ever read Matthew 25?

Heaven exists nowhere except in the human imagination, so why would I fear exclusion in an imaginary place? Do you believe the Christian ascension story? Ever been in an airplane?

My problem is not with my own beliefs, but with the division of humanity into "the chosen" and "the infidel," whether it's by Christians or Muslims or whoever. That kind of division has REAL political consequences.

freak80 says

the division of humanity into "the chosen" and "the infidel,"

One should study propaganda. The granfalloon technique, the phantom technique, the rationalization trap, etc...

All based on exploiting the biases of the human mind.

All used in religions thousands of years before politicians and commercial advertising tried their luck at it.

SoftShell says

That's stupidity and gullibility.

There is nothing of substance concerning the fear of a 'hell', hence no 'extortion'.

It's brainwashing from a young age. Believe it or not, many people *really do* believe they might go to hell/purgatory if they doubt the faith. It's not just Christianity with that kind of teaching, it's Islam too.

freak80 says

"Give me 10% of your income or something bad will happen to you (after you die.)" Bada Bing.

It's always after the fact...without ever any witnesses, except for Jesus of whom actually advocated the following:
Do yourself a favor and ignore them all. Heaven or Hell can be experienced now while we are alive.

This thread reminds me, I need to put indulgances on my shopping list!

Its fun to do bad things!

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Shostakovich says

Jesus says SUCK MY DICK!

HARDER, in the name of GOD!

Is THAT the line the priest used on you?

:P

Oh, I believe it.
I just don't think it falls under the 'extortion' description.
You were/are always free not to give.
And there will be no punishment after death for you, regardless of whether you give or not.

freak80 says

SoftShell says

That's stupidity and gullibility.

There is nothing of substance concerning the fear of a 'hell', hence no 'extortion'.

It's brainwashing from a young age. Believe it or not, many people *really do* believe they might go to hell/purgatory if they doubt the faith. It's not just Christianity with that kind of teaching, it's Islam too.

Well, I've changed from "not extortion", to "maybe, but it's a gray area"...
It's possible that intimidation by a church could be used to get you to empty your pockets into the wicker basket....But there still has to be some gullibility on your part to believe what you are being threatened with.

It's one thing when the person extorting has hard evidence, pictures of you screwing the neighbors wife...something else when you are being threatened with fairy tales and you inhale....

ex·tort [ik-stawrt] Show IPA
verb (used with object)
1.
Law.
a.
to wrest or wring (money, information, etc.) from a person by violence, intimidation, or abuse of authority; obtain by force, torture, threat, or the like.

Let me give you a small-town example of the Church Racket

Church is growing
Church buys neighboring property 1 for parking spaces
Church grows some more
Church buys neighbor property 2 for more parking space
Church grows some more
Church buys neighbor property 3 for more parking space
(repeat)

These parking lots are not taxed, and not available as public lots during the week. Unfortunately the church is right next to downtown and soon starts to swallow up one side of downtown over decades. They pay no taxes so negligible overhead. The church like any sociopathic business entity knows it wants to grow, and doesn't care about consequences. Eventually the city has to pass some special ordinances to avoid them swallowing downtown.

Vicente says

Let me give you a small-town example of the Church Racket

Church is growing

Church buys neighboring property 1 for parking spaces

Church grows some more

Church buys neighbor property 2 for more parking space

Church grows some more

Church buys neighbor property 3 for more parking space

(repeat)

These parking lots are not taxed, and not available as public lots during the week. Unfortunately the church is right next to downtown and soon starts to swallow up one side of downtown over decades. They pay no taxes so negligible overhead. The church like any sociopathic business entity knows it wants to grow, and doesn't care about consequences. Eventually the city has to pass some special ordinances to avoid them swallowing downtown.

There is a church in my neck of the woods of which a few of my friends parents were members.

Things there may different now but back then my friends would complain to me how the church would demand tithing regardless of whether their parents were employed or not. The church also provided no support during times of unemployment no matter how bad things got.

I later heard a story about how this same church bought a local school at a discount - this was mid-80's or so. They ran it as a religious school for a short time then turned around and sold it at a FAT profit to a developer who promptly erected McMansions. Because the property was owned by a church and had been operated as a religious school there was no tax on the sale.

Or so the story went.

SoftShell says

ex·tort [ik-stawrt] Show IPA

verb (used with object)

1.

Law.

a.

to wrest or wring (money, information, etc.) from a person by violence, intimidation, or abuse of authority; obtain by force, torture, threat, or the like.

con job?
noun Informal.
1.
an act or instance of duping or swindling.
2.
an act or instance of lying or talking glibly to convince others or get one's way.

SoftShell says

But there still has to be some gullibility on your part to believe what you are being threatened with.

It's one thing when the person extorting has hard evidence, pictures of you screwing the neighbors wife...something else when you are being threatened with fairy tales and you inhale....

But what about the indoctrination of children? It's one thing if an adult falls for the "eternal torture if you don't pay" bullshit; it's another thing if a child is brainwashed to believe it from a young age. That's a form of child abuse.

The subject is 'extortion via tithing'.
Brainwashing children is another topic, unless you are talking about spoiled rich little brats that tithe their inheritance.

freak80 says

SoftShell says

But there still has to be some gullibility on your part to believe what you are being threatened with.

It's one thing when the person extorting has hard evidence, pictures of you screwing the neighbors wife...something else when you are being threatened with fairy tales and you inhale....

But what about the indoctrination of children? It's one thing if an adult falls for the "eternal torture if you don't pay" bullshit; it's another thing if a child is brainwashed to believe it from a young age. That's a form of child abuse.

not a con job if the one on the collecting end actually believes the shit they plow.

Heraclitusstudent says

SoftShell says

ex·tort [ik-stawrt] Show IPA

verb (used with object)

1.

Law.

a.

to wrest or wring (money, information, etc.) from a person by violence, intimidation, or abuse of authority; obtain by force, torture, threat, or the like.

con job?

noun Informal.

1.

an act or instance of duping or swindling.

2.

an act or instance of lying or talking glibly to convince others or get one's way.

SoftShell says

But there still has to be some gullibility on your part to believe what you are being threatened with.

Read on propaganda. It's human brain biases, not gullibility. Within the right conditions, everybody falls for some version of it.

It's like commercial advertising: most people will say it has no effect on them. But studies show advertising have a massive effect.

Even if you understand the technique used, you would have to make a constant conscious effort not to be influenced while watching advertising.

Precisely why I 'tivo' everything, and skip all the commercials.

Heraclitusstudent says

Even if you understand the technique used, you would have to make a constant conscious effort not to be influenced while watching advertising.

I'd be interested in some sucker bringing a civil suit against "Name it and Claim it" Churches, the ones that promise donations get returned 3 fold, etc.

Be curious to see how the suit would develop, the technicalities, etc. Would be awesome if the defendants felt compelled to demonstrate their theology in court, hahahah.