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I am telling you there is no trickle down economy. It is Hoarding Economy

By Nobody   Jun 18, 1:58pm   6 links   5,856 views   352 comments   watch (2)   quote      

http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/the-hoarding-of-the-american-dream/ar-BBCKMQq?li=BBnb7Kz

It really doesn't make sense to give tax reduction to the rich and investors. The investors are motivated to invest, because
they are expecting a better return. The rich does not suffer from getting taxed more. In the end everyone wants to hoard.
Or they used that money that they hoard to invest in a system where they can squeeze more money from the middle class.

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313   iwog   2014/2016 = 99% civil   Jun 23, 10:22am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

Goran_K says

No. According to AGC plumbers in California can expect salaries from $60,000 to $100,000 at the top 25th percentile. You think those wages are bullshit? A pharmacist doesn't make much more than $100,000 a year.

ROFLOL @ top 25th percentile!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do you even hear yourself?? Weren't you talking about STARTING POSITIONS IN THE PLUMBING INDUSTRY?

"Here ya go kid!!! We're going to pay you $10 an hour to train as a plumber for 5 years but don't worry, 25 years from now you're going to make $60-100k! Until then, live with your mom."

314   iwog   2014/2016 = 99% civil   Jun 23, 10:23am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

Goran_K says

iwog says

I'll ask you again and you'll run away again: WHAT SPECIFIC PROCESS IS PREVENTING NEW PLUMBERS FROM GETTING QUICKLY TRAINED AND TAKING THESE JOBS?????

Desire.

So the state with the 3rd biggest labor shortage is Texas. Tell me again why liberal indoctrination in Texas is preventing people from wanting to work?

315   Goran_K   516/516 = 100% civil   Jun 23, 10:24am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

iwog says

ROFLOL @ top 25th percentile!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do you even hear yourself?? Weren't you talking about STARTING POSITIONS IN THE PLUMBING INDUSTRY?

"Here ya go kid!!! We're going to pay you $10 an hour to train as a plumber for 5 years but don't worry, 25 years from now you're going to make $60-100k! Until then, live with your mom."

Apprenticeships are 12-18 months. The wage is usually $15-$18 in training.

How long does a Pharmacist have to go to school before making good money? How much are they paid while in school?

Trades are awesome.

316   Goran_K   516/516 = 100% civil   Jun 23, 10:25am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

iwog says

So the state with the 3rd biggest labor shortage is Texas. Tell me again why liberal indoctrination in Texas is preventing people from wanting to work?

Texas growth has been off the scale compared to the rest of the U.S. Eventually those curves will intersect.

317   iwog   2014/2016 = 99% civil   Jun 23, 10:26am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

Goran_K says

Uh yes they do. Have you actually tried to do business in the 3rd world? I spent the better part of my career analyzing failed states like Somalia, or Sudan, and writing extremely large reports on the infrastructural and systems deficiencies that existed in the 3rd world and why pushing money into their domestic markets would be a very bad idea.

You're a follower of Ayn Rand so therefore by definition you are completely illiterate when it comes to economics.

No market is more free than that of Somalia. You can LITERALLY start a pirate business there. Land is free. There are no taxes. You can operate your own government consisting of armed thugs that you pay $1 a day to.

Are you saying that you can't open a 7/11 because the country is so free that it will be immediately looted?? Yup.....right.....exactly. You need the LIBERAL application of police, taxes, and regulations to create a safe environment to do business in. You need a strong government. You need exactly the opposite of what you believe is needed.

318   iwog   2014/2016 = 99% civil   Jun 23, 10:27am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

Goran_K says

Texas growth has been off the scale compared to the rest of the U.S. Eventually those curves will intersect.

Total non-sequitur and straw man.

I'm going to restate my point since you ran away from it and decided to talk about growth instead of a labor shortage. It was disingenuous however I spotted it immediately because I'm smarter than you are.

Tell me again why liberal indoctrination in Texas is preventing people from wanting to work and making it the state with the 3rd largest labor shortage in the country?

319   Goran_K   516/516 = 100% civil   Jun 23, 10:28am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

iwog says

You need the LIBERAL application of police,

What does that even mean? All the self proclaimed LIBERALS hate police and spend all of their time talking about how they want them gone from their neighborhoods, because they shoot black people.

320   iwog   2014/2016 = 99% civil   Jun 23, 10:29am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

Goran_K says

Apprenticeships are 12-18 months. The wage is usually $15-$18 in training.

Where can you live making $15-$18 an hour? Why don't you do the math and then tell us again why there's a labor shortage?

321   Goran_K   516/516 = 100% civil   Jun 23, 10:30am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

iwog says

You need a strong government. You need exactly the opposite of what you believe is needed.

I think you misunderstand libertarian values. It is not anarchy. Libertarians believe there is a place for the state, in defense of civil rights and assuring an environment where those are not violated.

322   iwog   2014/2016 = 99% civil   Jun 23, 10:31am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

Goran_K says

What does that even mean? All the self proclaimed LIBERALS hate police and spend all of their time talking about how they want them gone from their neighborhoods, because they shoot black people.

Great, another meaningless straw man. You can't help yourself I guess.

A strong central government with a strong police force is a liberal concept. Who the fuck cares what self-proclaimed liberals are spewing these days. They are simply proving themselves to be conservatives.

323   Goran_K   516/516 = 100% civil   Jun 23, 10:32am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

iwog says

Where can you live making $15-$18 an hour? Why don't you do the math and then tell us again why there's a labor shortage?

Living at home like millennials are increasingly doing or renting with a friend. The percentage of millennials who choose to continue living with their parents after college surpassed 40% in 2015.

If I were in that situation, I'd live with my parents for 12-18 months, make money, save up, and then once I got in full time with a shop, I'd move out with my savings and $60,000+ salary.

Not hard at all.

324   iwog   2014/2016 = 99% civil   Jun 23, 10:32am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

Goran_K says

I think you misunderstand libertarian values. It is not anarchy. Libertarians believe there is a place for the state, in defense of civil rights and assuring an environment where those are not violated.

I didn't say anarchy, I said no nation has a freer market than Somalia. It's a stone cold fact. The reason you can't do business there is that there isn't any government and there aren't any taxes.

To fix Somalia, you need government force, taxes, and regulations.

325   iwog   2014/2016 = 99% civil   Jun 23, 10:34am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

Goran_K says

If I were in that situation, I'd live with my parents for 12-18 months, make money, save up, and then once I got in full time with a shop, I'd move out with my savings and $60,000+ salary.

You're lying again. Didn't you JUST post that $60-100k was the top 25%?? Now you're going to dishonestly claim that you can make 60k after your apprenticeship? I guess we'll call that a fail.

Goran_K says

Living at home like millennials are increasingly doing or renting with a friend. The percentage of millennials who choose to continue living with their parents after college surpassed 40% in 2015.

Yup, exactly like most 3rd world nations. Keep on this path and we'll reap all the benefits of the 3rd world utopia!

326   Goran_K   516/516 = 100% civil   Jun 23, 10:34am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

iwog says

I didn't say anarchy, I said no nation has a freer market than Somalia. It's a stone cold fact. The reason you can't do business there is that there isn't any government and there aren't any taxes.

To fix Somalia, you need government force, taxes, and regulations.

Okay cool. No one said otherwise in this thread.

327   iwog   2014/2016 = 99% civil   Jun 23, 10:35am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

Goran_K says

Okay cool. No one said otherwise in this thread.

You're an Austrian right? You're not allowed to believe higher taxes is a solution for anything.

328   Goran_K   516/516 = 100% civil   Jun 23, 10:36am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

iwog says

Yup, exactly like most 3rd world nations. Keep on this path and we'll reap all the benefits of the 3rd world utopia!

What? People have been doing this for decades in America and we're not the 3rd world. How much money do people make out of high school? How many go to college and indebt themselves to the tune of $150,000 after 4 years.

The apprenticed plumber on the other hand will have a huge amount of savings after 12-18 months and then have a job making $60,000 a year.

Seems like that's a far better outcome than what a Harvard gender studies degree would expect.

329   Goran_K   516/516 = 100% civil   Jun 23, 10:39am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

iwog says

You're an Austrian right? You're not allowed to believe higher taxes is a solution for anything.

I'm old enough and experienced enough to not have to fit into labels like "Keynesianism" or "Austrianism". I have criticisms of both Krugman and Ron Paul. It's not good to be locked into ideology, no one is perfect.

330   iwog   2014/2016 = 99% civil   Jun 23, 10:41am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

Goran_K says

The apprenticed plumber on the other hand will have a huge amount of savings after 12-18 months and then have a job making $60,000 a year.

YOU SAID $60,000 per year is the top 25% of all plumbers.

How the fuck do you now say that $60,000 is the STARTING WAGE for a new plumber? You're losing the plot.

331   iwog   2014/2016 = 99% civil   Jun 23, 10:45am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

Goran_K says

I'm old enough and experienced enough to not have to fit into labels like "Keynesianism" or "Austrianism". I have criticisms of both Krugman and Ron Paul. It's not good to be locked into ideology, no one is perfect.

You're apparently not old enough or experienced enough to realize that the result of an intractable gap between wages and profits is to simply end the industry. You've been doing nothing but arguing against the free market here. You believe supply and demand have failed and you can't say why.

This is why there are no Mercedes dealerships in the slums or in 3rd world shanty towns. It's also why Austrian economics is such a joke. There is no term in Austrian economic math to represent cash-in-hand demand. Austrians ACTUALLY BELIEVE demand is ever present and that all products have a market. (if there is no market, it's not a product leading to the blindingly stupid conclusion that a Mercedes car isn't a product) If you don't know this, you haven't studied it.

332   Goran_K   516/516 = 100% civil   Jun 23, 10:46am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

iwog says

YOU SAID $60,000 per year is the top 25% of all plumbers.

How the fuck do you now say that $60,000 is the STARTING WAGE for a new plumber? You're losing the plot.

I said $100,000 at the 25th percentile, for total compensation (salary, benefits, perks, etc). A $60,000 total compensation package for a plumber who has gone through apprenticeship is not far fetched especially in major metro areas.

333   Goran_K   516/516 = 100% civil   Jun 23, 10:53am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

iwog says

You're apparently not old enough or experienced enough to realize that the result of an intractable gap between wages and profits is to simply end the industry. You've been doing nothing but arguing against the free market here. You believe supply and demand have failed and you can't say why.

I believe I explained exactly why it's failed for trades.

- Liberal Indoctrination at K-12, and College to look down upon trades which lead to a supply demand gap.

But, I'm also of the belief it will correct itself. According to AGC, apprenticeships are up, but the age of an apprentice has also gone up

“Right now, the average age of a carpentry apprentice is 27," according to Bill Irwin, executive director of Carpenters International Training Fund.

That shows me that people are beginning to realize that skilled trades can pay the bills, and even if they don't realize that after college, they realize it later in life when they leave their current fields.

To quote Mike Rowe:

As long as Americans remain addicted to affordable electricity, smooth roads, indoor plumbing and climate control, the opportunities in the skilled trades will never go away. They’ll never be outsourced. And those properly trained will always have the opportunity to expand their trade into a small business. But if we don’t do something to reinvigorate the trades, and make a persuasive case for good jobs that actually exist, I’m afraid the metaphorical crap in my literal toilet will never go away, and millions of great opportunities will go down the drain.

334   iwog   2014/2016 = 99% civil   Jun 23, 10:54am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

Goran_K says

I said $100,000 at the 25th percentile, for total compensation (salary, benefits, perks, etc). A $60,000 total compensation package for a plumber who has gone through apprenticeship is not far fetched especially in major metro areas.

Tired of this fucking bullshit so I'll just address it this way. $80,000 per year for a job in a city where a house costs $1 million.

https://www.indeed.com/cmp/Mr.-Rooter-Plumbing-of-San-Francisco/jobs/Experienced-Plumber-7d9d54bc4bfd7154?q=Journeyman+Plumber

$15-$25 per hour with 4 years experience in Sacramento.

https://www.indeed.com/cmp/BUSS-MECHANICAL/jobs/Journeyman-Plumber-0657bdc03aaf9fd6?q=Journeyman+Plumber

If I was 21 years old and looking for a career, a career with almost no opportunity for advancement, I'd conclude that going through an apprenticeship in order to make these shit wages would be a complete non-starter.

Hey look!!!!! REAL world examples!!!!!!

335   Goran_K   516/516 = 100% civil   Jun 23, 10:54am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

iwog says

Tired of this fucking bullshit so I'll just address it this way. $80,000 per year for a job in a city where a house costs $1 million.

https://www.indeed.com/cmp/Mr.-Rooter-Plumbing-of-San-Francisco/jobs/Experienced-Plumber-7d9d54bc4bfd7154?q=Journeyman+Plumber

So, they don't have to live in S.F. They can live in Concord where you have you real estate empire. Problem solved.

336   iwog   2014/2016 = 99% civil   Jun 23, 10:57am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

Goran_K says

- Liberal Indoctrination at K-12, and College to look down upon trades which lead to a supply demand gap.

Dead wrong. If there is anything preventing men from entering blue collar jobs, it's the fact that marriage is dead and women refuse to have sex with blue collar workers. Your liberal indoctrination theory is total fucking crap as evidenced by the FACT that Republicans control both houses of congress and the White House. You're asserting a claim here that would predict liberal Democrats would dominate all elections. That's why my example was Texas. You're simply wrong and desperately looking for reasons to explain something which your dogma doesn't allow to be explained.

Goran_K says

That shows me that people are beginning to realize that skilled trades can pay the bills, and even if they don't realize that after college, they realize it later in life when they leave their current fields.

LOL yup, at the PEAK of our economic recovery.

Watch what happens in a few years. You're about to get schooled skippy!

337   iwog   2014/2016 = 99% civil   Jun 23, 10:57am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Goran_K says

So, they don't have to live in S.F. They can live in Concord where you have you real estate empire. Problem solved.

A starter 3 bedroom, 2 bath house in Concord costs $500,000 now and that's 1200 sq. feet.

Problem solved?

338   Goran_K   516/516 = 100% civil   Jun 23, 10:59am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

iwog says

Goran_K says

So, they don't have to live in S.F. They can live in Concord where you have you real estate empire. Problem solved.

A starter 3 bedroom, 2 bath house in Concord costs $500,000 now and that's 1200 sq. feet.

Problem solved?

Uh? https://www.apartments.com/meadow-wood-apartments-concord-ca/n8rf8xp/

$1,475 is easily cleared by a guy making $80,000 a year.

Problem solved.

339   Strategist   1793/1798 = 99% civil   Jun 23, 11:00am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

iwog says

If I was 21 years old and looking for a career, a career with almost no opportunity for advancement, I'd conclude that going through an apprenticeship in order to make these shit wages would be a complete non-starter.

Hey look!!!!! REAL world examples!!!!!!

I wouldn't do it either. The job literally stinks. I would go to college.
What would you do?

340   Goran_K   516/516 = 100% civil   Jun 23, 11:03am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

iwog says

Dead wrong. If there is anything preventing men from entering blue collar jobs, it's the fact that marriage is dead and women refuse to have sex with blue collar workers.

If a person needs to drop a title to have sex with women, they probably have other problems. Plenty of non-white collars have hot ass girlfriends or wives and make it work no problem. Stop trolling.

Your liberal indoctrination theory is total fucking crap as evidenced by the FACT that Republicans control both houses of congress and the White House.

But not the narrative at the K-12 level (not yet). But hopefully within time. We'll see.

341   iwog   2014/2016 = 99% civil   Jun 23, 11:03am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Goran_K says

Uh? https://www.apartments.com/meadow-wood-apartments-concord-ca/n8rf8xp/

$1,475 is easily cleared by a guy making $80,000 a year.

So here's the wonderful life you're now advocating.

1. Go through 6 weeks of training.
2. Go through 18 months of apprenticeship. (not sure where you got this bullshit but the state apprenticeship program is 5 years)
3. Gain 3-6 years of experience working for shit wages.
4. Get your glorious $80,000 job in San Francisco and move into a 1-bedroom shit hole apartment next to the Concord airport with the oil refinery and municipal garbage dump as your neighbors. No family, no chance of sex ever, and if you're lucky you might be able to afford a car.

Gee, it's a fucking mystery why no one would choose this life!!!!!!!

342   iwog   2014/2016 = 99% civil   Jun 23, 11:04am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Goran_K says

If a person needs to drop a title to have sex with women, they probably have other problems. Plenty of non-white collars have hot ass girlfriends or wives and make it work no problem. Stop trolling.

Your version of alternate reality here is really cute.

In the bankruptcy business, we have another term for blue collar workers who made the mistake of getting married: Wage slave.

343   iwog   2014/2016 = 99% civil   Jun 23, 11:06am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Strategist says

I wouldn't do it either. The job literally stinks. I would go to college.

What would you do?

Yup. The point is that wages are too low to attract workers in this field and therefore there are record vacancies.

Goran's point is that people don't want these lucrative jobs because reasons. Liberals are at fault because reasons. Wages can't go higher because reasons.

He doesn't explain any of it but I'm sure the reasons are good ones.

344   Goran_K   516/516 = 100% civil   Jun 23, 11:09am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

iwog says

Get your glorious $80,000 job in San Francisco and move into a 1-bedroom shit hole apartment next to the Concord airport with the oil refinery and municipal garbage dump as your neighbors. No family, no chance of sex ever, and if you're lucky you might be able to afford a car.

Gee, it's a fucking mystery why no one would choose this life!!!!!!!

Why are you so obsessed with the idea that a blue collar guy never gets sex when it's clearly a lie? The $80,000 is just a starting point. Those guys can start their own shops and charge $100 per hour. I should know, when I owned rental properties and did repipes, I wrote hefty checks.

345   Goran_K   516/516 = 100% civil   Jun 23, 11:11am  ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

iwog says

Your version of alternate reality here is really cute.

In the bankruptcy business, we have another term for blue collar workers who made the mistake of getting married: Wage slave.

Aren't you married Iwog? Why are you so down on the concept? Marriage is awesome with the right women. I love being married.

346   iwog   2014/2016 = 99% civil   Jun 23, 11:40am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Goran_K says

Aren't you married Iwog? Why are you so down on the concept? Marriage is awesome with the right women. I love being married.

I'm not a blue collar worker.

347   Bellingham Bill   99/99 = 100% civil   Jun 23, 6:16pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

iwog says

I'm not a blue collar worker.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=ecfN

notional after-tax corporate profits per hour of work per worker (2009 dollars)

348   joeyjojojunior   788/793 = 99% civil   Jun 23, 6:39pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

But, but, but... companies can't afford to pay workers more money

349   Strategist   1793/1798 = 99% civil   Jun 23, 7:49pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

joeyjojojunior says

But, but, but... companies can't afford to pay workers more money

The God of Capitalism will dictate who will survive and who will perish. It's the survival of the fittest.

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