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What are the root causes of Islamic terrorism? Discuss.

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By PeopleUnited   Mar 20, 5:38pm   ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (1)   42 links   11,870 views   552 comments   watch (1)   quote  

Sensible people are discouraged from thinking about the root causes of Islamic terrorism by mainstream media and academia. (AKA SJW's)

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/414113/actual-root-causes-islamic-terrorism-ira-straus

Osama Bin Laden was a well to do man from a well to do family who was radicalized.

http://markhumphrys.com/root.cause.html

Former Islamic Radical shares his solutions.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/261829/former-islamic-radical-unveils-root-causes-islamic-joseph-puder

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513   Dan8267   1841/1862 = 98% civil   private mesage   Apr 15, 3:37pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote   top   bottom   home   share  

PeopleUnited says

It may surprise you but I do not see our relationship as adversarial.

We don't have a relationship. Who advocates a lie is irrelevant to the fact that it is a lie. The messenger is irrelevant. What matters is reality, and reality is that
- your god is false
- your religion has done far more evil than good
- faith is intrinsically bad regardless of the arbitrary mythology underneath it.

PeopleUnited says

I am a student wishing to learn.

One cannot learn morality if one bases his understanding on lies and some fake unquestionable authority figure. To learn any domain, you must accept reality for what it is regardless of how much you want it to be different. Then you must study the domain as a science. Nothing less will yield wisdom.

PeopleUnited says

God has been accused of being unethical for killing or allowing people to be killed. The above proves that killing becomes necessary in a world where each individual is able to make their own choices

Your god is allegedly all-powerful and can simply will reality to his desires. It would NEVER be necessary for such a god to kill anyone, especially infants. No all-powerful being needs to murder the first born of an entire nation to set people free from slavery. He could just teleport the slaves to a new land and temporarily paralyze any soldiers or heads of state that pursued the slaves. Mass infanticide and horribly drowning soldiers ordered to pursue slaves is not necessary and certainly not moral.

PeopleUnited says

As a libertarian you know

I'm not a libertarian. I'm a liberal.

PeopleUnited says

God is a libertarian, (he is not a conservative who never lets anyone disobey).

Bullshit. Neither Libertarians nor Liberals would torture a person for all eternity if that person exercised their freedom to make a choice he didn't agree with. That's some fucked up shit.

PeopleUnited says

Lying is immoral, except when it isn't.

Obviously deception can be justified if it prevents a greater evil. I've already addressed this multiple times. The idea that lying to the masses about the existence of a god and afterlife can be used to manipulate those masses into behaving better is the Noble Lie Hypothesis (TM).

The Noble Lie Hypothesis is simply wrong. It is wrong in general because a lie told, not to a few individuals, but to the entire world ultimately will
1. Cause unintended consequences that outweigh the intended gain.
2. Pervert the original intent twisting it into something that motivates people to do great evil.
3. Will be seen through by the most powerful and dangerous individuals who will pay lip service to the lie but act in opposition to the intent.
4. Will cause the creation of other great lies that also cause great evil.
5. Will prevent a truthful and stable solution to the original problem trying to be solved.

The lie of Christianity empirically resulted in all five of these consequences. Is
1. Caused genocide, slavery, infanticide, torture, war, and many other atrocities. It also held back scientific and technological advancement that would have saved billions of lives of the past 2000 years and greatly diminished suffering. Hell, just child births deaths alone outweigh all the good that the lie was intended to create. Before science, childbirth deaths were the norm, not the exception.
2. Christianity has been used to justify all the evils listed in example one as well as many others.
3. Just look at how state officials have used Christianity to further the evilest of plots. Even noble lies are more easy to corrupt and twist than the truth.
4. From "God hate fags" to "God is on our side" to burning heretics at the stake, so much evil policy and practice has stemmed from Christianity in particular.
5. Christianity has done nothing but hold back morality as I explained in many examples such as enslaving and slaughtering whales, which are clearly sentient beings.

PeopleUnited says

We need to keep in mind that circumstances are always relevant.

I hate to break this to you, but one of the great motivations of monotheists is to make morality absolute and unquestionable irregardless of situation. This is why they insist there has to be a god, and more importantly, only one god. If you had multiple gods, then those gods could disagree, and that would kill morality.

Why the hell should anyone who accepts the Christian god reject all other possible gods? Because acceptance of the mere possibility of other gods would end the monopoly on moral authority.

This is the great hypocrisy of all monotheistic religions.

If you reject all other gods, then why should I accept yours?

514   Dan8267   1841/1862 = 98% civil   private mesage   Apr 15, 3:37pm  ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote   top   bottom   home   share  

PeopleUnited says

Dan8267 says

I'm going to humiliate you yet again.

Dan8267 says

Immorality comes from committing harm either intentionally or out of apathy.

It would seem that you have a problem abiding by your own set of morals.

Once more, you are wrong. I'll admit to a little hyperbole here, but humiliating someone in an anonymous Internet debate is not causing harm. Nor am I acting out of apathy. Clearly I'm passionate about upholding truth and rational thought.

However, more importantly, the messenger is irrelevant. How many times do I have to say this? Martin Luther King, Jr. had extramarital affairs. That does not mean his message of equality under law regardless of race was wrong. You are attempting to do the exact same thing the FBI unethically did, which is to character assassinate a person in order to discredit his message. This is called poisoning the well, and it is not only a logical fallacy but a moral and ethical failing. You should be honest enough to debate the issue at hand rather than trying to persuade the audience with such an underhanded tactic.

The fact is that even if I never existed, your god and your religion would still be false. Who I am and whatever moral failings I have are completely irrelevant to that issue.

In contrast, the examples I give of evil behavior performed by Christians specifically because of their faith is most certainly intrinsic to the point that Christianity motivates evil. When Christians hold up signs that say "God hates fags!", they are doing so precisely because of their religion. Stating this is not poisoning the well but rather giving empirical evidence of a statement.

iwog says

PeopleUnited says

How can a fictional god be unjust?

LOL.....seriously? How can Darth Vader be evil? How can Miss Piggy love a frog? Your brilliance should be studied by scientists.

Iwog is correct. A fictional character can be evil in the sense that the character represents evil or performs acts that would be evil if done in reality. Characters are symbols, but as symbols they serve a purpose. In the case of Darth Vader, his purpose is to demonstrate what not to do.

In contrast, the Christian god is a fictional character used to advocate evil. The writers of the Bible had many evil ideas and used their "holy" text to advance evil agendas. The Christian god was not intended to demonstrate what not to do, but actually what to do. Go forth and kill the infidels.

515   Dan8267   1841/1862 = 98% civil   private mesage   Apr 15, 3:50pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote   top   bottom   home   share  

PeopleUnited says

I could just as easily rephrase the question with a Christian bent. "Is it moral for atheists to teach their children the lie that there is no Heaven or hell?

1. It is not a lie. The lie is that heaven and hell exist.

If the Christian afterlife were not a lie, then the girl who killed herself would have been wise to do so and it would not be a tragedy. Furthermore, the most moral thing you could do would be to kill babies before they could sin. That way, they are guaranteed eternal happiness in heaven. To allow babies to live would be the greatest evil as you would literally be placing their souls in danger or eternal damnation.

2. It is absolutely moral to teach children that the afterlife is a lie. Really, you shouldn't have to teach them that and wouldn't have to if the lie were not so prevalent in our society. But keeping children from being brainwashed into believing falsehoods on which they might base critical life decisions, is definitely moral.

PeopleUnited says

However, I did not color my questions with disputed "facts".

What a racist statement! You have no problem disregarding every religious belief from Islam to Hindi to Buddhism to dozens of Native American religions to hundreds of African religions. However, the beliefs of your particular religion are "disputed facts"? No, they aren't.

There is absolutely no evidence or rational reason to think that any of your religion's myths are at all real. I could make up some story right now and call it a religious belief. That would not mean the story is something that should be taken seriously as a possible but disputed fact. Case in point: Scientology.

Unless you give equal credibility to Scientology and the myths of every other religion in all of history, then you are a hypocrite. I will not give your religion's myths any more credibility then those. I will not have a separate standard for your religion than I have for any other one including Scientology.

516   Dan8267   1841/1862 = 98% civil   private mesage   Apr 15, 3:57pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote   top   bottom   home   share  

PeopleUnited says

Possiblity #4 there is no culprit. The child died due to a grief motivated irrational decision. At the very least believing that God wants you to relieve your grief by committing suicide is a misunderstanding of Him and His will. Suicide is irrational.

At this point I am leaning towards #4. How about you?

The girl's act of killing herself would be completely rational, wise, and right if the Christian afterlife was not a complete and utter lie. If the Christian beliefs were actually correct, that girl would be happy in heaven with her father right now and the only tragedy in the story is that the mother did not also commit suicide.

Clearly, you do not believe this story had a happy ending. Therefore, deep down inside, you know the Christian afterlife is a lie.

517   Dan8267   1841/1862 = 98% civil   private mesage   Apr 15, 3:58pm  ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote   top   bottom   home   share  

PeopleUnited says

May Jesus, the force, or whatever else you want to be with you, be with you.

That would be the truth. It is the truth that is with us.

518   PeopleUnited   207/207 = 100% civil   private mesage   Apr 15, 5:07pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   top   bottom   home   share  

Dan8267 says

We don't have a relationship.

Who are you talking to then?

519   PeopleUnited   207/207 = 100% civil   private mesage   Apr 15, 5:18pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote   top   bottom   home   share  

Dan8267 says

What matters is reality, and reality is that

- your god is false

- your religion has done far more evil than good

- faith is intrinsically bad regardless of the arbitrary mythology underneath it.

Honey, repeating it doesn't make it any more true.

The reality is Jesus lives.
There is one mediator between God and humans and that is His Son Jesus Christ.
Humans are intrinsically bad regardless of the arbitrary mythology/dogma they believe. The Bible was written by God to show us we are all sinners who need a savior.

There, fixed it for you (again). We can do this all day sweetheart. It seems like we will, apparently neither of us has any prayer or math that is more important to do.

Do you have an equation to explain this? Surely it must be a product of evolution right?

Romans 3:10-18

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

520   PeopleUnited   207/207 = 100% civil   private mesage   Apr 15, 5:26pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote   top   bottom   home   share  

Dan8267 says

One cannot learn morality if one bases his understanding on lies ... To learn any domain, you must accept reality for what it is regardless of how much you want it to be different. Then you must study the domain as a science. Nothing less will yield wisdom.

Well said, and good advice. I suggest you follow it. As much as you don't want the Bible to be God's word, you will never have understanding until you understand it. Here is a good place to start.

Proverbs 1
1 The proverbs of Solomon son of David, king of Israel:

2 for gaining wisdom and instruction;
for understanding words of insight;
3 for receiving instruction in prudent behavior,
doing what is right and just and fair;
4 for giving prudence to those who are simple,[a]
knowledge and discretion to the young—
5 let the wise listen and add to their learning,
and let the discerning get guidance—
6 for understanding proverbs and parables,
the sayings and riddles of the wise.[b]
7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge,
but fools[c] despise wisdom and instruction.

521   PeopleUnited   207/207 = 100% civil   private mesage   Apr 15, 5:48pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote   top   bottom   home   share  

Dan8267 says

Your god is allegedly all-powerful and can simply will reality to his desires. It would NEVER be necessary for such a god to kill anyone, especially infants. No all-powerful being needs to murder the first born of an entire nation to set people free from slavery. He could just teleport the slaves to a new land and temporarily paralyze any soldiers or heads of state that pursued the slaves. Mass infanticide and horribly drowning soldiers ordered to pursue slaves is not necessary and certainly not moral.

A little much with the science fiction Dan? We already discussed how killing is sometimes the ethical choice. Since you don't know the circumstances or motive of action why are you making this generalization?To demonize a God you claim doesn't exist? Have you always beat your head against the keyboard?

Make a specific claim about a specific circumstance in which you accuse God of acting unethically. I will show you where you are mistaken. Every. Time.

Dan trying to prove God is a lie.

I just need to find the missing variables, then I can make an equation that explains EVERYTHING! Math is the only way to know truth!!! Why isn't this equation working????
(you left God out of the equation genius)

Psalm 14

1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the Lord.

522   PeopleUnited   207/207 = 100% civil   private mesage   Apr 15, 6:07pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote   top   bottom   home   share  

Dan8267 says

The lie of Christianity empirically resulted in all five of these consequences. Is

1. Caused genocide, slavery, infanticide, torture, war, and many other atrocities. It also held back scientific and technological advancement that would have saved billions of lives of the past 2000 years and greatly diminished suffering. Hell, just child births deaths alone outweigh all the good that the lie was intended to create. Before science, childbirth deaths were the norm, not the exception.

2. Christianity has been used to justify all the evils listed in example one as well as many others.

3. Just look at how state officials have used Christianity to further the evilest of plots. Even noble lies are more easy to corrupt and twist than the truth.

4. From "God hate fags" to "God is on our side" to burning heretics at the stake, so much evil policy and practice has stemmed from Christianity in particular.

5. Christianity has done nothing but hold back morality as I explaine...

1. The vast majority of technological development has occurred in the west, in countries where Christianity is practiced freely and where things like "In God we Trust" is inscribed on the money supply. You can just as easily blame God for most of our modern understanding and technology.
2. Misinterpretation of scripture to promote evil is an indictment of the person who presents the misinterpretation, not of the scripture itself.

For example. You misread a map on a trip to Las Vegas and end up in Reno instead. You blame the map. That is exactly what you just did you blamed the map because the idiot reading it couldn't understand it. Dan do yourself a favor and don't blame the map/Bible.
3. see #2
4. see #2
5. http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/peace/laureates/1964/king-bio.html
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/peace/laureates/1979/teresa-bio.html
https://www.amazon.com/Christianity-Changed-World-Alvin-Schmidt/dp/0310264499

523   PeopleUnited   207/207 = 100% civil   private mesage   Apr 15, 6:16pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote   top   bottom   home   share  

Dan8267 says

Once more, you are wrong. I'll admit to a little hyperbole here, but humiliating someone in an anonymous Internet debate is not causing harm. Nor am I acting out of apathy. Clearly I'm passionate about upholding truth and rational thought.

However, more importantly, the messenger is irrelevant. How many times do I have to say this? Martin Luther King, Jr. had extramarital affairs. That does not mean his message of equality under law regardless of race was wrong. You are attempting to do the exact same thing the FBI unethically did, which is to character assassinate a person in order to discredit his message. This is called poisoning the well, and it is not only a logical fallacy but a moral and ethical failing. You should be honest enough to debate the issue at hand rather than trying to persuade the audience with such an underhanded tactic.

Once more Danny, you are wrong. Here is the context.

Dan8267 says

I'm going to humiliate you yet again.

Dan8267 says

Immorality comes from committing harm either intentionally or out of apathy.

PeopleUnited says

It would seem that you have a problem abiding by your own set of morals. I say this not because I think your intention is evil, but to again prove the point that circumstances are important -for no doubt you have an argument that your attempt to humiliate me is for the greater good ;)

You are doing exactly what you claimed I did, you are poisoning the well. This, despite the fact that I clearly stated A) I do not suspect evil intentions and B) that the purpose of my pointing out your seeming contradiction is that I was attempting to prove that circumstances are important. You need to work on your reading comprehension.

524   PeopleUnited   207/207 = 100% civil   private mesage   Apr 15, 6:25pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote   top   bottom   home   share  

Dan8267 says

I hate to break this to you, but one of the great motivations of monotheists is to make morality absolute and unquestionable irregardless of situation. This is why they insist there has to be a god, and more importantly, only one god. If you had multiple gods, then those gods could disagree, and that would kill morality.

God said we are created in His image. From this we can infer a lot of things. One of them is that we dwell in a realm where at times killing is moral and at other times it is immoral, at times lying is moral and at other times lying is immoral. I hate to break it to you but that is what the Bible teaches, it isn't as simple as black and white. It rarely is. Oh and by the way, the Bible does talk about disagreement in Heaven. Satan is the first liar in the Bible. His lies inspired Eve to disobey, Adam to sin and Cain to kill. Satan's lies are the origin of the evils of this world.

525   Dan8267   1841/1862 = 98% civil   private mesage   Apr 15, 6:26pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote   top   bottom   home   share  

PeopleUnited says

Who are you talking to then?

Honey, an online argument does not a relationship make.

526   Dan8267   1841/1862 = 98% civil   private mesage   Apr 15, 6:29pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote   top   bottom   home   share  

PeopleUnited, you have not add anything to the conversation in your latest responses. You are simply repeating yourself and all your claims have already been debunked. Trying to use the Bible to convince anyone that the Bible is unerring is just plain stupid. Once more you demonstrate that Christian brainwashing is dangerous. It stops people from thinking.

@Patrick, once more I ask you if you still hold the view that Christianity is without considerable harm just within the United States.

527   PeopleUnited   207/207 = 100% civil   private mesage   Apr 15, 6:34pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote   top   bottom   home   share  

Dan8267 says

When Christians hold up signs that say "God hates fags!", they are doing so precisely because of their religion.

The problem is not that you are wrong, but that you paint with too broad of a brush. The Bible does not teach Christians to hold up signs that insult homosexuals. If Jesus wanted Christians to do so, he would have stood by the side of the road and done the same thing. You can claim that the teachings of Westborro Baptist Church are corrupt because of the vile things they do, I agree. But it is unfair to blame Christ for teaching them to do this. He set the example and when did he ever persecute homosexuals? Hint, he didn't. You are poisoning the well and you are doing so by appropriating the actions of a few people who don't understand the Bible to all of Christianity. It is thinly veiled dishonesty.

528   PeopleUnited   207/207 = 100% civil   private mesage   Apr 15, 6:36pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote   top   bottom   home   share  

Dan8267 says

PeopleUnited says

Who are you talking to then?

Honey, an online argument does not a relationship make.

re·la·tion·ship/rəˈlāSH(ə)nˌSHip/
noun
the way in which two or more concepts, objects, or people are connected, or the state of being connected.

I hate to break this to you sweetheart but we are connected. You had me at (click submit). Come in for a virtual hug!

529   PeopleUnited   207/207 = 100% civil   private mesage   Apr 15, 6:40pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote   top   bottom   home   share  

Dan8267 says

PeopleUnited, you have not add anything to the conversation in your latest responses. You are simply repeating yourself and all your claims have already been debunked. Trying to use the Bible to convince anyone that the Bible is unerring is just plain stupid. Once more you demonstrate that Christian brainwashing is dangerous. It stops people from thinking.

@Patrick, once more I ask you if you still hold the view that Christianity is without considerable harm just within the United States.

Actually Dan you have added nothing to this conversation besides repeating over and over again your opinion that the God of the Bible doesn't exist and that religion has brought ONLY evil into this world. Both of which are lies.

530   PeopleUnited   207/207 = 100% civil   private mesage   Apr 15, 6:50pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote   top   bottom   home   share  

Dan8267 says

The Christian god was not intended to demonstrate what not to do, but actually what to do. Go forth and kill the infidels.

Is that what they taught you in your Catholic schooling? And yet you didn't go on Jihad? None of your classmates when Jihad? Doesn't pass the sniff test. Can you quote chapter and verse when Jesus said to go forth and kill?

No, I didn't think so. More poisoning of the well from the resident viper.

Here is what Jesus ACTUALLY said:

Mark 16:15-16

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

531   Dan8267   1841/1862 = 98% civil   private mesage   Apr 15, 7:00pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote   top   bottom   home   share  

PeopleUnited says

The problem is not that you are wrong, but that you paint with too broad of a brush.

This is a cop out. I have never claimed that every Christian does that. I have never even claimed that the majority of Christians murder, rape, or torture, or do various other things that many Christians have throughout history. However, the same can be said just as truthfully about Muslims. The vast majority of Muslims are not Jihadists. And there are plenty of people who claim that Islamic terrorists do not at all reflect Islam or represent Muslims.

You personally have opened this thread and made many posts to counter that very supposition. You have countered that there is something about Islam that is directly and intrinsically responsible for terrorism committed by various Islamic groups and individuals. Your hypocrisy is denying that intrinsic cause does not at all apply to Christianity, but clearly it does as demonstrated by all of history. The intrinsic cause is faith.

Any faith is intrinsically bad and can and eventually will motivate people to do evil. Just because it doesn't motivate every person who is faithful to do evil does not mean that faith isn't a common tool of evil. You reject the supposition that Islam has nothing to do with Islamic terrorism and other atrocities committed by Islam, and then you hypocritically make the essentially identical supposition that Christianity has nothing to do with the atrocities committed by Christians. That is a complete contradiction.

I am holding you and your religion to the exact same standards you are holding Islam and Muslims to.

532   Dan8267   1841/1862 = 98% civil   private mesage   Apr 15, 7:02pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote   top   bottom   home   share  

PeopleUnited says

Dan8267 says

The Christian god was not intended to demonstrate what not to do, but actually what to do. Go forth and kill the infidels.

Is that what they taught you in your Catholic schooling?

That is what the Bible says, and Catholic schooling as well as all other Christian religions teach that the Bible is the word of god. Hell, you have made numerous posts on this very thread that say the Bible is the word of god. So don't claim that my statements are inaccurate.

The Bible is not the word of god, but fools believe it is and act accordingly. That is dangerous. It does not matter if we are talking about the Bible or the Quran. Accepting any book as holy is dangerous. Books are not holy. Nothing is. Faith that something is holy is dangerous and causes irrational and violent behavior.

533   PeopleUnited   207/207 = 100% civil   private mesage   Apr 15, 7:12pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote   top   bottom   home   share  

Strategist says

FortWayne says

Dan8267 says

Be a murderer and believe in Jesus and he'll forgive your sins and you'll go to heaven.

You clearly have not gone to church, because what you said is not how it works. What you said, can only be said by someone who truly has no idea, but probably heard something somewhere. You are just bad at this Dan.

No. That's what I hear all the time, too.

If you accept Jesus Christ as your savior, all your sins are forgiven, and you will go to heaven. I get asked all the time to accept Christ, before it's too late.

-----------------

@Fortwayne is right. It is not the magic words that save like in Islam where if you just say some nonsense about Allah and some prophet and you are Muslim/"saved".

It is the actual resting in faith that makes you a new creature, the testimony of faith is just the result of true belief. That is not to say that people can't make false professions, they clearly do make false professions.

It is like this, people can say "I believe that this chair will hold me. I know that this chair will hold me. Please God let this chair hold me!" But unless you actually sit in the chair you have proven you have no faith.

If you want Jesus to save you, you have put ALL your weight on Him.

1 Peter 5:7

7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.

Romans 10:10
For with the heart man believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Matthew 11:28-29

28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

534   PeopleUnited   207/207 = 100% civil   private mesage   Apr 15, 7:32pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote   top   bottom   home   share  

Dan8267 says

PeopleUnited says

The problem is not that you are wrong, but that you paint with too broad of a brush. The Bible does not teach Christians to hold up signs that insult homosexuals. If Jesus wanted Christians to do so, he would have stood by the side of the road and done the same thing. You can claim that the teachings of Westborro Baptist Church are corrupt because of the vile things they do, I agree. But it is unfair to blame Christ for teaching them to do this. He set the example and when did he ever persecute homosexuals? Hint, he didn't. You are poisoning the well and you are doing so by appropriating the actions of a few people who don't understand the Bible to all of Christianity. It is thinly veiled dishonesty..

This is a cop out. I have never claimed that every Christian does that. I have never even claimed that the majority of Christians murder, rape, or torture, or do various other things that many Christians have throughout history. However, the same can be said just as truthfully about Muslims. The vast majority of Muslims are not Jihadists. And there are plenty of people who claim that Islamic terrorists do not at all reflect Islam or represent Muslims.

You personally have opened this thread and made many posts to counter that very supposition. You have countered that there is something about Islam that is directly and intrinsically responsible for terrorism committed by various Islamic groups and individuals. Your hypocrisy is denying that intrinsic cause does not at all...

No cop out. I am just calling you on your bullshit. You are indicting Christianity for the actions of the minority who did exactly the opposite of what Jesus told them to do.

Islam on the other hand specifically teaches it followers to enact violence on non-Muslims.

The difference is striking. Like night and day.

You are arguing that the roadmap that Jesus gave us is evil simply because people don't read it and end up in the wrong place. It isn't the map that is the problem, and it certainly isn't the maker of the map. People end up in the wrong place precisely because they don't trust/use the map (Bible).

Islam however creates a map that leads directly to slavery and murder. That is where the Islamic map leads.

535   PeopleUnited   207/207 = 100% civil   private mesage   Apr 15, 7:35pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote   top   bottom   home   share  

Dan8267 says

PeopleUnited says

Dan8267 says

The Christian god was not intended to demonstrate what not to do, but actually what to do. Go forth and kill the infidels.

Is that what they taught you in your Catholic schooling?

That is what the Bible says, and Catholic schooling as well as all other Christian religions teach that the Bible is the word of god. Hell, you have made numerous posts on this very thread that say the Bible is the word of god. So don't claim that my statements are inaccurate.

So Dan if your statements are true, where does Jesus teach his followers to go forth and kill? Was that a personal revelation from God? I just have never heard Jesus say to go forth and kill so it would appear that you made it up.

536   PeopleUnited   207/207 = 100% civil   private mesage   Apr 15, 7:42pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote   top   bottom   home   share  

Dan8267 says

Just because it doesn't motivate every person who is faithful to do evil does not mean that faith isn't a common tool of evil.

That is the exact argument that people make to enforce drug control. Are you promoting prohibition?

537   PeopleUnited   207/207 = 100% civil   private mesage   Apr 15, 7:49pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote   top   bottom   home   share  

Dan8267 says

Christianity has nothing to do with the atrocities committed by Christians.

What I seek to remind you is that Christ taught his followers NOT to commit atrocities. Therefore the actions of "christians" that do not follow Christ's teachings are not a result of Christ's teachings. You are attempting to indict the schoolmaster for the crimes of the students who rejected their schoolmaster's instruction. It is an irrational accusation.

538   Dan8267   1841/1862 = 98% civil   private mesage   Apr 15, 7:50pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote   top   bottom   home   share  

PeopleUnited says

You are indicting Christianity for the actions of the minority who did exactly the opposite of what Jesus told them to do.

I am stating that Christianity, like all other religions, is based on faith which is inherently dangerous. I am also providing empirical evidence that faith specifically has motivated Christians to do great evil.

If you were at all honest, you would try to debate that premise instead of making a straw man.

You are also being completely hypocritical. After all, only a minority of Muslims have become terrorists. Yet you have no problem saying that Islamic terrorism is caused by Islam. Well, Christian atrocities also are caused by Christianity.

The hypocrisy of your position is unbearable.

539   Dan8267   1841/1862 = 98% civil   private mesage   Apr 15, 7:51pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote   top   bottom   home   share  

PeopleUnited says

That is the exact argument that people make to enforce drug control

That's a lie.

540   PeopleUnited   207/207 = 100% civil   private mesage   Apr 15, 11:05pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote   top   bottom   home   share  

Dan8267 says

PeopleUnited says

That is the exact argument that people make to enforce drug control

That's a lie.

Did you even bother to watch the video? You just proved my point. 2:56 Prohibitionists claim that drugs cause people to become violent. You are making the same claim about religion. By the way drug prohibition includes not just marijuana but heroin, crack, ICE, PCP. Prohibitionists want to ban drugs claiming that drugs cause violence. You have made the exact same charge against Christianity and religion as a whole. Own up to it. Oh and just like prohibitionists lie about marijuana causing violence, you lie about Jesus promoting violence.

541   Dan8267   1841/1862 = 98% civil   private mesage   Apr 15, 11:15pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote   top   bottom   home   share  

Honey, your false equivalency does not pan out and your point isn't proven. If you are trying to argue that Christianity has not throughout the past 2000 years caused people to commit violence and atrocities then you are both wrong and a hypocrite. Let me hear you make that same dumb argument about Islam.

542   PeopleUnited   207/207 = 100% civil   private mesage   Apr 15, 11:25pm  ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote   top   bottom   home   share  

Dan8267 says

The hypocrisy of your position is unbearable.

It is your blindness that is unbearable. Open your eyes. Compare Jesus to that other guy. Faith in Jesus causes people to repent and trust in Him. Faith in Jesus requires that you do what He tells you to do. That is why most people don't want to be Christians, they don't want God telling them what to do. Jesus says not to kill, not to hate your neighbor. People who kill, hate, and other such things are not followers of Jesus and they have not acted out of faith in Him. The faithless people who claim to be killing, hating in Jesus name are not His disciples. But don't take my word for it.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/articles/jesus-muhammad.aspx

Comparing Islam and Christianity
Jesus and Muhammad,
Islam and Christianity:
A Side-by-Side Comparison

It is not the purpose of this site to promote any particular religion,
including Christianity. However, TROP does enjoy refuting nonsense,
such as the claim that Muhammad and Jesus preached a
morally equivalent message or that all religion is the same.

"I will cast terror into the hearts of those who
disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads
and strike off every fingertip of them."
"Allah"(Quran 8:12)

"Fight everyone in the way of Allah and
kill those who disbelieve in Allah."
Muhammad (Ibn Ishaq 992)

"Love your neighbor and pray for those who persecute you."
Jesus (Matthew 5:44)

Even though many Muslims regard terrorists who kill in the name of Allah as criminals, they cannot deny that Muhammad also killed in the name of Allah. What example of Jesus do Christians emulate which has them confused with terrorists and criminals?

Each year, thousands of Christian homes and churches are torched or bombed by Muslim mobs, and hundreds of Christians, including dozens of priests, pastors, nuns and other church workers are murdered at the hands of Islamic extremists. The so-called justification varies, from charges of apostasy or evangelism, to purported "blasphemy" or " insulting" Islam. Innocent people have even been hacked to death by devout Muslims over cartoons.

Yet, there is little if any violent retaliation from religious Christians to the discrimination, kidnapping, rape, torture, mutilation and murder that is routinely reported from nations with Muslim majorities. Neither is there any significant deadly terrorism in the name of Jesus, as there is in the stated cause of Allah each and every day. Muslim clerics in the West do not fear for their safety as do their Christian counterparts.

The "Christian world" and the Islamic world contrast sharply in other ways as well, from the disparate condition of human rights and civil liberties to economic status. An astonishing 70% of the world's refugees are Muslims - usually seeking to live in Christian-based countries.

While Western societies take seriously "scandals" such as Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (where no one has actually been killed), Muslims routinely turn a blind eye to their own horrible atrocities, even those committed explicitly in the name of Allah. The Muslim world has yet to offer a single apology for the hundreds of millions who were consumed by centuries of relentless Jihad and slavery.

These sharp differences are almost certainly rooted in the underlying religions, which begin with the disparate teachings and examples set by Jesus and Muhammad...

Visit this website for a side by side comparison of Christianity and Islam. The chart is half way down the page.

543   Dan8267   1841/1862 = 98% civil   private mesage   Apr 15, 11:27pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote   top   bottom   home   share  

My religion is good. Everyone else's religions are bad. So convincing. Well, that settles it. Let's ignore 2000 years of recorded history because some nutjob thinks his religion is the one true one.

544   PeopleUnited   207/207 = 100% civil   private mesage   Apr 15, 11:32pm  ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote   top   bottom   home   share  

Dan8267 says

Honey, your false equivalency does not pan out and your point isn't proven. If you are trying to argue that Christianity has not throughout the past 2000 years caused people to commit violence and atrocities then you are both wrong and a hypocrite. Let me hear you make that same dumb argument about Islam.

My religion is good. Everyone else's religions are bad. So convincing. Well, that settles it. Let's ignore 2000 years of recorded history because some nutjob thinks his religion is the one true one.

Sweetheart calling me names doesn't change the fact that Jesus does not preach violence. He blesses the peacemakers and called on His people to love their enemies.

545   PeopleUnited   207/207 = 100% civil   private mesage   Apr 15, 11:38pm  ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote   top   bottom   home   share  

PeopleUnited says

List of Islamic Terror:

Last 30 Days as of 4/14/17

This is part of the list of Islamic terror attacks maintained by TheReligionofPeace.com. (note this website does not catch all attacks, nor are they immediately posted)

During this time period, there were 137 Islamic attacks in 23 countries, in which 1124 people were killed and 1081 injured.

546   Dan8267   1841/1862 = 98% civil   private mesage   Apr 15, 11:45pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote   top   bottom   home   share  

PeopleUnited says

Sweetheart calling me names doesn't change the fact that Jesus does not preach violence. He blesses the peacemakers and called on His people to love their enemies.

Even if Jesus was real, that doesn't change the fact that Christianity has not called people to become more peaceful but in fact far more violent and dangerous. And that is all that matters, not the intent of one man who may or may not have lived, but the real actions of those who follow your religion over the past 2000 years. Even the noblest religion -- which Christianity is most certainly not -- is inherently corruptible and dangerous because faith requires a rejection of reality and reason. Even if Jesus was real and good, Christianity is bad.

547   PeopleUnited   207/207 = 100% civil   private mesage   Apr 16, 1:08am  ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike   quote   top   bottom   home   share  

@Dan
We are pretty close to agreement. For surely the noblest person, family, club, organization, church, business, tribe, city, state and nation is inherently corruptible and dangerous because humans can choose good or evil. Unfortunately Christians are not always Christ like, they sometimes choose evil. Fortunately Christians who want to practice pure Christianity and follow the strict teachings of Jesus will find that to do so requires doing good including such moral behaviors as charity, loving their neighbor as themselves and therefore forsaking of violence except in the case of self defense.

Islamic terrorism on the other hand is currently practiced as a way of life for a growing number of Muslims. It is the ideology that is leading people astray. Islamic ideology is incompatible with liberty so something has to give. Will it be Islamic ideology or will it be liberty?

548   Dan8267   1841/1862 = 98% civil   private mesage   Apr 16, 1:52pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote   top   bottom   home   share  

PeopleUnited says

We are pretty close to agreement.

I don't think so. You refuse to even address the core issue. Faith is not a tool for good, but rather a tool for evil. Accepting beliefs without evidence and even in spite of counter-evidence is intrinsically bad because it demands that people disregard rationality and truth and blindly follow something that is wrong. This very mechanism demands corruption and perversion.

You are the perfect example of a complete disregard of the truth, reality, and rationality. There is nothing that would convince you that the Bible, a poorly written collection of propaganda written by vile men with evil social and political agendas, is factually wrong. The fact that you cannot be convinced of this regardless of what evidence is presented demonstrates the dangers of Christian brainwashing.

You and I have antithetical and incompatible worldviews. You believe that your particular culture, that you were probably born into, must be the dominate culture even if it is based on lies, and that those lies must be accepted as the truth by everyone regardless of how dangerous and counter-productive they are. You value your culture above everything else; above the truth, above peace, above honesty, above morality.

I believe that ultimately good is more stable, more productive, and more effective than evil. Therefore, it is never in the long-term interest of a society to every accept a lie, no matter how noble. Furthermore, most if not all "noble" lies turn out not to be so noble. Either way such lies ultimately favor evil in the long run. There is a price to be paid for founding moral authority on lies. This price can never be avoided.

I believe the best way to further good is truth, transparency, and scientific understanding of everything including morality. Science works. Faith doesn't. History proves this beyond any doubt. Morality should be based on truth expressed mathematically, not based on lies and fair-tales with many dubious and contradictory values.

549   PeopleUnited   207/207 = 100% civil   private mesage   Apr 17, 7:02am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote   top   bottom   home   share  

Dan8267 says

PeopleUnited says

We are pretty close to agreement.

I don't think so. You refuse to even address the core issue. Faith is not a tool for good, but rather a tool for evil.

Your hypothesis is that faith is a tool for evil. Every hypothesis deserves testing and validation. So lets test that hypothesis.

First off we need to examine what faith is. Faith is a belief. What you believe is what you accept to be true, and what you believe forms the basis of intention. David Velleman of NYU says intentions are future-directed beliefs about what one will do—they are ‘self-fulfilling expectations that are motivated by a desire for their fulfillment and that represent themselves as such. We exercise faith on a routine basis. Does this evidence support your hypothesis?

550   Dan8267   1841/1862 = 98% civil   private mesage   Apr 17, 7:44am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote   top   bottom   home   share  

PeopleUnited says

Your hypothesis is that faith is a tool for evil. Every hypothesis deserves testing and validation. So lets test that hypothesis.

History has already proven that time and time again. Countless experiments have been ran and the conclusions have been in for a long time.

When people fly planes into buildings, that's a faith based initiative.

551   PeopleUnited   207/207 = 100% civil   private mesage   Apr 17, 8:16am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote   top   bottom   home   share  

Dan8267 says

PeopleUnited says

Your hypothesis is that faith is a tool for evil. Every hypothesis deserves testing and validation. So lets test that hypothesis.

First off we need to examine what faith is. Faith is a belief. What you believe is what you accept to be true, and what you believe forms the basis of intention. David Velleman of NYU says intentions are future-directed beliefs about what one will do—they are ‘self-fulfilling expectations that are motivated by a desire for their fulfillment and that represent themselves as such. We exercise faith on a routine basis. Does this evidence support your hypothesis?

When people fly planes into buildings, that's a faith based initiative.

Agreed, but you didn't address my question. You have accused me of not addressing the core issue. You claim the the core issue is that faith is evil. I am challenging that hypothesis. I am putting it to the test. Do you dispute definition of faith as a belief? Do you dispute definition of intention as a future directed belief? Do you dispute that you exercise faith on a routine basis?

552   Dan8267   1841/1862 = 98% civil   private mesage   Apr 17, 8:52am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote   top   bottom   home   share  

PeopleUnited says

You claim the the core issue is that faith is evil. I am challenging that hypothesis. I am putting it to the test.

No, that is exactly what you are not doing. To test a hypothesis is to accept the results of the experiments. You refuse to accept the results of millions of experiments that have all shown that faith in general, and Christian faith in particular, is a tool for evil. It's not like there isn't enough evidence in the past 2000 yeas of history. At some point, you are just completely disregarding any empirical evidence that doesn't support the answer you want.

PeopleUnited says

Do you dispute definition of faith as a belief? Do you dispute definition of intention as a future directed belief? Do you dispute that you exercise faith on a routine basis?

Jesus fucking Christ! Do you really think that using academic language is going to let you throw in a red herring and avoid all the evidence that faith is evil? Fine, I'll go over your catachrestic pomp and circumstance explaining why it's bullshit.

Bullshit. I believe that Maine is in the United States of America. That isn't faith. It's knowledge. Faith is the believe without evidence and even in spite of counter-evidence. There is no evidence that Jesus rose from the dead, yet you believe it. That is faith. There is ample evidence that man-made climate change is occurring. That is knowledge. The two are completely different things. From this misunderstanding alone we can discard everything else you just said, but let's continue.

PeopleUnited says

First off we need to examine what faith is. Faith is a belief.

PeopleUnited says

David Velleman of NYU says intentions are future-directed beliefs about what one will do

Who gives a shit what David Velleman says? Appeal to authority means nothing, and name dropping will not score you any points. If you cannot explain the statement and how it relates to this discussion, then no one should take it seriously.

PeopleUnited says

they are ‘self-fulfilling expectations that are motivated by a desire for their fulfillment and that represent themselves as such

Intentions are clearly not self-fulfilling. Anyone who has lived on this planet more than five years can tell you that.

PeopleUnited says

We exercise faith on a routine basis.

You might, but rational people do not. Nor would this supposition support that faith is not a tool for evil.

PeopleUnited says

Does this evidence support your hypothesis?

I don't think you know what evidence actually is. Core samples are evidence of historic temperatures. The crusades are evidence of wars created by Christianity. What you was spout off a bunch of nonsensical sentences with no reference to actual evidence of anything. Seriously, did you think your words were convincing?

I didn't respond to your nonsense initially because the only response to nonsense is to call it nonsense. You can't patch and fix it up.

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