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Honest question, What is at the root of the growing homeless problem?

By indigenous   Mar 19, 11:18pm   8,909 views   57 comments   watch (0)   quote      

#housing

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18   Ceffer   Mar 20, 12:28pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Not enough free shit and massive government bureaucracies to administer the free shit. Free shit allows all the poor homeless people to be good peepuls.

Better yet, the government bureaucracies can squander all the free shit on themselves because the homeless are fucked, anyway.

19   PeopleUnited   Mar 20, 1:29pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

It is silly to make generalizations, or sweeping statements such as "You know nothing..." Which are clearly untrue and only serve to make yourself look like a fool.
Fucking White Male says

Poverty has nothing to do with it.

Clearly there are various circumstances that can result in various forms of temporary homelessness and there are also people who choose homelessness as a lifestyle. There are also those who achieve homelessness via circumstances outside of their control. There are people who achieve homelessness due to their own choices/addictions. One can make the argument that it is a choice not to change those circumstances either before or after becoming homeless. Never the less, poverty certainly plays a role. It would be a rare thing to have wealth/income and still be homeless. A person who owns their home, and has the money to pay their bills is not homeless.

It has been said that when you got nothing, you have got nothing to lose. Give every person some land and all of a sudden many if not most of them will choose to be responsible and take care of that land or put it to good use by renting it out. That is just common sense.

Part of the problem with the current globalization is not so much that we have multinational corporations, it is that these corporations are so big and the wealthy are so rich that we are perhaps only one generation away from a true dystopia where the means of production is entirely controlled by a small minority and you either work for them or they will tell you you are not needed. George Orwell's 1984 comes to mind. It isn't just that they control the media. They control the land, they control the food, they control the housing, they control the health care system.

The only way to avoid this is to give more power, more land, more control to the individual. And that is going to mean that the wealthy are going to have to start losing or at least sharing more.

20   Quigley   Mar 20, 1:39pm     ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike   quote    

Georgism would help a bit with some of the systemic issues. But most of these people choose this way of life because it works with their addictions.
If I were governor, I'd be rounding them up each week, identifying and sorting them by ability, putting the addicts in the drunk tank for a month, connecting the temporarily disadvantaged with government subsidied housing and jobs, and bussing the rest to pick crops while living on site in barracks. That's where the addicts will be going as well after they detox.
Call it the "back to nature" plan.

21   rpanic01   Mar 20, 1:40pm     ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike   quote    

Clearly the problem is to much kindness and good weather.

22   Ceffer   Mar 20, 1:42pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

I love giving money to homeless people so they don't go without. That is, without alcohol, drugs and cigarettes.

23   Entitlemented   Mar 20, 3:30pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

indigenous says

Section 8 housing causing a shortage in housing because people use more space than they would if they had to pay for it. Which keeps the pricing higher. This is what happens with rent control.

Zoning laws, rent controls, and minimum house/apartment requirements. Which is essentially a total sales limit, a price ceiling, and a price floor.

Overall, high housing costs created by all the government intervention.

Truth - we have caused homelessness by government malfeasance, and malinvestment.

Are you Libertarian or Republican - if I might ask?

24   CBOEtrader   Mar 20, 3:41pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

the pesky gun control laws

25   indigenous   Mar 20, 4:14pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Entitlemented says

Are you Libertarian or Republican - if I might ask?

The prior we are on the same page.

26   indigenous   Mar 20, 4:26pm     ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike   quote    

Too much verbiage. The problem is simple, when you pay people to be homeless you get homeless. People in government are paid to keep up the charade.

I was only wondering what flavor of public transfer we are talking about.

27   PeopleUnited   Mar 20, 5:12pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

indigenous says

Too much verbiage. The problem is simple, when you pay people to be homeless you get homeless. People in government are paid to keep up the charade.

I was only wondering what flavor of public transfer we are talking about.

Many people who are homeless chose to be homeless or made choices that resulted in homelessness. However, few homeless people are paid NOT to put a roof over their heads. I agree that what you subsidize you get more of, however unless we are going to allow homeless people to also go hungry and naked I don't see how you are going to fix the problem by eliminating any form of private or public assistance to feed, cloth and sometime yes even house the poor souls who don't have a roof, meal or pair of pants.

28   PockyClipsNow   Mar 20, 5:22pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

Mexico and Brazil just let people squat in home made shacks made of plywood.

We are going to have to allow this at some point, in many places, if the problem gets worse.

Under no circumstances will housing EVER become affordable - the bankers proved this is not an outcome on the list of possible outcomes.

So when we go full brazil/favela housing will have two classes - the brown poor favela dwellers and if you dont want to live in a shack you get a loan and pay the full 'market price' of the house where the police will patrol.

29   someone else   Mar 20, 5:31pm     ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike   quote    

True!

The powers that be have their power mostly because workers must obey them or lose their house. Usually it's like this: you have to obey your boss, or you get fired and cannot pay your mortgage. You don't have savings because you put it all in the downpayment, but still have a big mortgage. And when you do obey your boss, you're actually working for the shareholders. And most of the shareholders are the 1%.

So to make housing cheap would be to take away power from the powerful. Workers would not have to obey bosses. That would be freedom, not slavery. Freedom for workers is loss for the wealthy. So cheap housing = freedom = impossible because the rich don't want that.

Kinda rambling, but you get the picture.

30   Fucking White Male   Mar 20, 5:33pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

PeopleUnited says

indigenous says

Too much verbiage. The problem is simple, when you pay people to be homeless you get homeless. People in government are paid to keep up the charade.

I was only wondering what flavor of public transfer we are talking about.

Many people who are homeless chose to be homeless or made choices that resulted in homelessness. However, few homeless people are paid NOT to put a roof over their heads. I agree that what you subsidize you get more of, however unless we are going to allow homeless people to also go hungry and naked I don't see how you are going to fix the problem by eliminating any form of private or public assistance to feed, cloth and sometime yes even house the poor souls who don't have a roof, meal or pair of pants.

It is nearly entirely a result of drug/alcohol abuse and mental illness. Now what came first..the drug abuse or the mental illness...thats much more of a chicken or egg thing.

The bottom line remains that as there are fewer criminal consequences for homelessness, there are also fewer motivations for dealing with drug addiction and mental illness.

Furthermore, if my 18 year old step daughter can outperform 30-40 year old adults at work, which did in fact happen, the problem is not just one of income inequality, but rather one of merit and performance. Which is why lefty bleeding hearts are a bunch of dum dums. And yes I'm being serious. Mostly because you used a whole bunch of words to say stuff that isn't actually true.

31   someone else   Mar 20, 5:35pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

That's true too.

Just walk around the Tenderloin in SF. Most of those homeless people are clearly addicts or mentally ill or both.

32   FortWayne   Mar 20, 5:44pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Drugs, alcohol and insane housing costs.

33   PeopleUnited   Mar 20, 5:46pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

Fucking White Male says

Which is why lefty bleeding hearts are a bunch of dum dums. And yes I'm being serious.

Exactly.

But so is anyone who would leave a fellow human being out in the cold with no food or clothing.

34   PeopleUnited   Mar 20, 5:48pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Fucking White Male says

The bottom line remains that as there are fewer criminal consequences for homelessness, there are also fewer motivations for dealing with drug addiction and mental illness.

Perhaps we should lock up homeless people for being homeless? Brilliant.

Oh, and lock people up for not getting sober too. As if prisons weren't full enough already. Yes these people need help but are you going to pay for rehab?

35   FortWayne   Mar 20, 5:49pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

PeopleUnited says

Fucking White Male says

Which is why lefty bleeding hearts are a bunch of dum dums. And yes I'm being serious.

Exactly.

But so is anyone who would leave a fellow human being out in the cold with no food or clothing.

Some people are beyond any help. Nothing any of us can do.

36   PeopleUnited   Mar 20, 5:51pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

Patrick says

True!

The powers that be have their power mostly because workers must obey them or lose their house. Usually it's like this: you have to obey your boss, or you get fired and cannot pay your mortgage. You don't have savings because you put it all in the downpayment, but still have a big mortgage. And when you do obey your boss, you're actually working for the shareholders. And most of the shareholders are the 1%.

So to make housing cheap would be to take away power from the powerful. Workers would not have to obey bosses. That would be freedom, not slavery. Freedom for workers is loss for the wealthy. So cheap housing = freedom = impossible because the rich don't want that.

Kinda rambling, but you get the picture.

This is so true. Working class hero is something to be!

37   Strategist   Mar 20, 5:54pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

FortWayne says

But so is anyone who would leave a fellow human being out in the cold with no food or clothing.

Some people are beyond any help. Nothing any of us can do.

No matter what you do, they will come back.

38   PeopleUnited   Mar 20, 5:54pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

FortWayne says

PeopleUnited says

Fucking White Male says

Which is why lefty bleeding hearts are a bunch of dum dums. And yes I'm being serious.

Exactly.

But so is anyone who would leave a fellow human being out in the cold with no food or clothing.

Some people are beyond any help. Nothing any of us can do.

Matthew 25:31-46

The Son of Man Will Judge the Nations
31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy[a] angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they also will answer Him,[b] saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

39   PeopleUnited   Mar 20, 5:55pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Strategist says

FortWayne says

But so is anyone who would leave a fellow human being out in the cold with no food or clothing.

Some people are beyond any help. Nothing any of us can do.

No matter what you do, they will come back.

Yes, they will.

40   PeopleUnited   Mar 20, 5:57pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

PockyClipsNow says

Mexico and Brazil just let people squat in home made shacks made of plywood.

We are going to have to allow this at some point, in many places, if the problem gets worse.

Under no circumstances will housing EVER become affordable - the bankers proved this is not an outcome on the list of possible outcomes.

So when we go full brazil/favela housing will have two classes - the brown poor favela dwellers and if you dont want to live in a shack you get a loan and pay the full 'market price' of the house where the police will patrol.

Probably true. Perhaps in the next 20 years. That is the scary part.

41   indigenous   Mar 20, 6:23pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

In January 2015, 564,708 people were homeless on a given night in the United States.
Of that number, 206,286 were people in families, and
358,422 were individuals.
About 15 percent of the homeless population - 83,170 - are considered "chronically homeless” individuals.
About 2 percent - 13,105 - are considered "chronically homeless” people in families.
About 8 percent of homeless people- 47,725 - are veterans.

Surely some can be reformed into working.

Again this covers it nicely.

42   Strategist   Mar 20, 6:33pm     ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike   quote    

indigenous says

In January 2015, 564,708 people were homeless on a given night in the United States.

Of that number, 206,286 were people in families, and

I don't understand how whole families can be homeless when we have:
Welfare
Section 8 housing
Food Stamps
Churches
Charity Organizations

How do illegals manage to get everything that is offered, while the homeless don't? I just don't get it.

43   Indiana Jones   Mar 20, 7:21pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

This will give you a background on the deinstitutionalization of the mentally ill in California through the 60's and 70's and then how it became nationwide under Reagan in the 1980's, and how this is the backbone of the high numbers of homelessness we find in our current times.

http://www.salon.com/2013/09/29/ronald_reagans_shameful_legacy_violence_the_homeless_mental_illness/

"Until the 1980s, most people in the United States were unaware that the deinstitutionalization of patients from state mental hospitals was going terribly wrong. Some were aware that homicides and other untoward things were happening in California, but such things were to be expected, because it was, after all, California. President Carter’s Commission on Mental Health issued its 1978 report and recommended doing more of the same things—more CMHCs, more prevention of mental illness, and more federal spending. The report gave no indication of a pending crisis. The majority of patients who had been discharged from state hospitals in the 1960s and 1970s had gone to their own homes, nursing homes, or board-and-care homes; they were, therefore, out of sight and out of mind...

...During the 1980s, an additional 40,000 beds in state mental hospitals were shut down. The patients being sent to community facilities were no longer those who were moderately well-functioning or elderly; rather, they included the more difficult, chronic patients from the hospitals’ back wards. These patients were often younger than patients previously discharged, less likely to respond to medication, and less likely to be aware of their need for medication. In 1988 the National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH) issued estimates of where patients with chronic mental illness were living. Approximately 120,000 were said to be still hospitalized; 381,000 were in nursing homes; between 175,000 and 300,000 were living in board-and-care homes; and between 125,000 and 300,000 were thought to be homeless. These broad estimates for those living in board-and-care homes and on the streets suggested that neither NIMH nor anyone else really knew how many there were..."

44   indigenous   Mar 20, 10:44pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

1988 was almost 30 years ago. That is not current information.

You have to take into account that NIMH has a vested interest in diagnosing everyone as batshit crazy, look at how many people are prescribed anti anxiety meds.

45   indigenous   Mar 20, 11:01pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Strategist says

How do illegals manage to get everything that is offered, while the homeless don't? I just don't get it.

The number of families would probably be the 200k number divided by 3 or 4?

The mutts in government have an incentive to claim as many as possible, which may mean the family is homeless one night a year?

In the video Stossel points out that a large part of the problem is with single mothers who get pushed to the front of the line. Which is understandable but also an incentive for the woman to stay single. This is a result of LBJ and the Great Society, effectively eugenics on blacks. LBJ was a known racist.

With the price of housing being what it is it, exacerbates the problem as well. Anyone who thinks the rise in the cost of housing is organic let me know, I have a bridge I want to sell you.

The problem is also worse in states with more benefits so the homeless situation is worse in those states.

46   indigenous   Mar 21, 7:37am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

I read where Houston has lessened the homeless problem by a dearth of centralized planning.

California's rise in the cost of real estate has been driven by centralized regulation and restrictions. Yeah there has been an increase in demand by the various industries, but the real driver in the increase has been the hubris of the planners.

47   indigenous   Mar 21, 7:47am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/11/houston-homelessness-declines_n_7561640.html

Wednesday. "It's incredible," Marilyn Brown, president and CEO of the Coalition for the Homeless, told the Houston Chronicle.

48   Indiana Jones   Mar 21, 8:43am     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

indigenous says

1988 was almost 30 years ago. That is not current information

You asked about the root. Homelessness didn't begin 5 years ago. This article goes into the tremendous increase of homelessness in the 1980's and the issues with the lack of funding and resources for the actual mentally ill, not the anxious but functioning populace. Reagan, despite being the President (and a very average actor), was not a God, and his presidency was not perfect, despite his current glorification. Carter also had his part in this, so it's possible to still put the blame on the democrats if that works better for you.

49   indigenous   Mar 21, 12:50pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

I'm looking at what is pertinent.

It is true that Reagan closed the mental hospitals for the mentally ill.

Depending on how people are categorized, empirically I would say that a small percentage of the homeless are truly mentally ill.

The overarching problem is public transfers to people for becoming remaining homeless and the high cost of housing caused by building restrictions.

50   errc   Mar 21, 12:51pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

The overarching problem is public transfers to people for becoming remaining homeless

--------------

What are you referring to here?

51   casandra   Mar 21, 1:01pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

All I can speak for is the several homeless people that I know; and they have one thing in common: They all made choices that made them homeless, even after being warned what they were doing.

52   P N Dr Lo R   Mar 21, 3:18pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

indigenous says

It is true that Reagan closed the mental hospitals for the mentally ill

It stared long before that, on October 31, 1963, when JFK signed his last piece of legislation, The Community Mental Health Act--it was not part of the Great Society of LBJ, but it fit right into the context of the thinking at the time that the federal government could solve every problem. Here's the rest of the story (I'm glad I finally committed it to a Word document so I could just cut and paste it I've used it so many times):

It was an effort to do penance for the lobotomy his father had performed on his mentally ill next younger sister Rosemary in 1941 and was the greatest shame to the Kennedy family according to Kate Larson, author of Rosemary: The Hidden Kennedy Daughter. It took the running of mental hospitals out of the hands of the states and turned it over to the federal government and we know how that always works out. It's ironic the word "Community" is in the name because community control has nothing to do with it. There were "snake pits" and "bedlams" for sure, but where were severely mentally ill people going to be better off, inside or outside of an asylum, a place of protection by definition? There were supposed to be community centers for the mentally ill to reside in and receive treatment and medication, but that never happened except for a few poorly run halfway houses. The courts did their part in the 70's by ruling that a person can't be admitted for observation against their will. Over the next 50 years our cities filled up with the mentally ill homeless and today the police are by default their first encounter with authority. It's estimated that today over 10% of inmates are mentally ill when it was around 1% 50 years ago. The other ingredient that makes it even worse is the drug culture which came along in the late 60's and only exacerbates mental illness. Like the police have said over and over, they didn't sign up to be mental health experts, but apparently the desires of the larger public has placed that responsibility on them whether they wanted it or were prepared for it or not, for better or worse.

53   junkmail   Mar 21, 3:24pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

Tents are really cheap?

54   Fucking White Male   Mar 21, 3:49pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

You want to fix homelessness?

1.) end the corruption. This is done entirely by removing government funding. The private organizations in Los Angeles...the Weingart foundation, the midnight mission, etc, do the heavy lifting. The govt sponsored groups like Crooked Danny Bakewells brotherhood crusade is all about profiting Danny himself. The SRO groups...well yeah they get homeless off the street. They also line their own pockets by hooking the homeless people up with state disability and then promptly introduce them to the local drug dealer, receiving a cash payment from the dealer in the process. The private groups do a great job on their own. Dump the govt money. If you wanna know why I say lefty bleeding hearts are dummies, this is why.

2.) allow cops to make arrests when people break the law. Eventually some find their way into treatment.

3. Remove homeless encampments wherever they pop up. There's no constitutional right to make your house on a sidewalk. It's an epidemic on the overpasses along the 110 fwy and absolutely digusting and unsafe for the people living in their neighborhoods. It's proof positive that the LA Times is run by evil shitheads with a politics agenda. Any other city, this situation would be front page news until the politicians were begging for mercy.

55   Entitlemented   Mar 21, 4:22pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Patrick says

Kinda rambling, but you get the picture.

Far from rambling - you hit the nail on the head. The CRA made housing unaffordable, and Obama and ZIRP propped it back up.

Make america affordable again!

56   someone else   Mar 21, 4:27pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Entitlemented says

The CRA made housing unaffordable

Do you mean this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Reinvestment_Act

57   FormerDig   Apr 7, 7:27pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

indigenous says

#housing

I think rising rents are the primary driver of homelessness at the moment.

Homelessness is not a binary condition. There are people who have a large buffer, medium buffer, small buffer and no buffer. The smaller the buffer the more likely to push someone over the edge into homelessness.

Rent has been the single largest game changer. The place I rented in Oakland until 2011 for 1040/month is now going for 2100, as just one anecdote. And it's not just a matter of relocating. You're talking about people with possibly trashed credit and nothing to cover first, last and deposit. They have neither the cash to move nor the credit to compete with other renters.

As housing becomes increasingly a tightrope, people will simply fall off. If we hit a recession, which I expect we will within the next three years, the homeless population will likely explode.

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