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The Difference Between Home And Self

By someone else following x   2007 Sep 9, 11:53pm 21,916 views   169 comments   watch   nsfw   quote     share    


hsh

One reason the housing debate gets so emotional is that many people cannot distinguish between where they live and who they are. Their home feels like their self. And how can you put a price on your self? Realtors and lenders exploit this emotion for personal profit, destroying the financial lives of millions.

Others take a more practical view, and are willing to separate their sense of self from where they live. They can and have saved huge amounts of money by renting or owning a house well within their means, and can watch the housing bubble implode with equanimity.

What is it that separates these two kinds of people?

Patrick

#housing

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130   Allah   ignore (0)   2007 Sep 11, 6:15am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

Realtor's can be funny sometimes

Make sure you leave some comments :lol:

131   Randy H   ignore (0)   2007 Sep 11, 6:21am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

I have a novel idea. How about we start along the line of reducing market distortions by *not* bailing out individual homedebtors or the lenders and lending arms associated with writing bad loans? I say keep the banks solvent, but let them lose every single cent of loan default, and I say let Mister and Misses McDebtor queue up at the local welfare office if they need assistance. Why should we favor irresponsible homeowners? I'd much rather see my tax dollars go towards helping an inner city single mom who's stepping up and trying to get some training to change her lot in life than a couple of real estate partiers who gorged on home equity debt and left their credit impulse purchases to rot in the landfill.

132   FormerAptBroker   ignore (0)   2007 Sep 11, 6:26am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

salk Says:

> Randy don’t forget that the EU and most of Asia
> doesn’t have the inner city problem that we have here.

The EU has less poor black people living housing projects than the US does, but they still have problems (do a Google Search for “Paris Riots” as an example).

Housing projects are a bad idea since any time you put a group of people that are too lazy and/or stupid to work in one place you will have a lot of problems.

133   Peter P   ignore (0)   2007 Sep 11, 6:29am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

The EU has less poor black people living housing projects than the US does, but they still have problems (do a Google Search for “Paris Riots” as an example).

They now have the perfect weapon, Kärcher. (And the leader who has enough resolve to use it.)

134   FormerAptBroker   ignore (0)   2007 Sep 11, 6:32am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Randy H Says:

> I’d much rather see my tax dollars go towards helping
> an inner city single mom who’s stepping up and trying
> to get some training to change her lot in life than a couple
> of real estate partiers who gorged on home equity debt
> and left their credit impulse purchases to rot in the landfill.

The first thing anyone needs to do if they want to help an “inner city single mom” is to get her and the kids out of the “inner city” (and/or housing project)…

135   DinOR   ignore (0)   2007 Sep 11, 6:38am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

"a couple of real estate partiers who gorged on home equity debt"

Real Estate Partiers or (REP) should be in the glossary. It's a perfect description for about 80% of the @ssclowns out there. Almost as if they knew it couldn't last.

136   Randy H   ignore (0)   2007 Sep 11, 6:40am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

The first thing anyone needs to do if they want to help an “inner city single mom” is to get her and the kids out of the “inner city” (and/or housing project)…

I would happily see this use of welfare tax dollars, so long as there is also some vocational training for mom and learning day care for her children (where they can incidentally be "indoctrinated" into the idea that they need not repeat the cycle of welfare and poverty). Just keeping them all in the inner cities does nothing more than keep the drug and prison industries fully employed.

137   HARM   ignore (0)   2007 Sep 11, 6:51am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Welfare is meant to help people getting back on their own feet. It is not designed to sustain social parasites.

How about the born-rich 'socialite parasites'?
http://www.parishilton.com/

Corporate/Richistani welfare is every bit as corrosive to our social fabric and work ethic as welfare for the poor.

138   SQT57   ignore (0)   2007 Sep 11, 6:55am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

The Bush bailout deal only requires that homeowners were current on their payments before the ARM reset. Most people ended up in jeopardy after the payments changed.

I think the biggest problem for most FB'ers isn't going to be whether or not they were current before the reset, it's going to be the 3% positive equity requirement. I know people who are $100K underwater in their homes. I don't know how most debtors are going to be showing any equity after cashing out their home ATMs.

139   Randy H   ignore (0)   2007 Sep 11, 6:56am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Randy's Version of the Real Estate Partier (REP) Metaphor:

Just like some block-party gone out of control, the party in residential real estate kept got started as a small number of revelers who weren't having any kind of event too worthy of attention. But, as word of mouth spread, and people from all around came to see what the noise was about, the party kept growing. By the time 1:00am rolled around people were coming in from wide and far, the virtues of the party having grown to mythic, unbelievable proportions.

And unbelievable it was. A few folks drove by the party and said to themselves, "sure looks like a ball, but this things way out of control". Others just elected to sit it all out, not wanting to risk getting the headache big parties always leave you with the next day.

But the partiers persisted. By 2:30am they were loudly singing, boasting of their partied exploits; boasting of the lameness of those who hadn't joined their never ending party nirvana.

And the party kept growing. By 3:30am late arrivals were paying *huge* cover charges at the door, as a few early partiers had their fill and sold their "ticket" at outrageous prices. In fact, there were no tickets, just fools selling them to bigger fools willing to buy them. But most partiers stayed, not wanting to miss out on what wonders things were surely to come next.

By 4:15am the streets were lined with people selling tickets, all with seven-digit prices. "They're not printing any more tickets you know! Better buy one now or you'll never be able to afford this party!" Of course, someone was printing the tickets, but that was beside the point. Those who could, through hook or through crook, were buying as many tickets as they could, knowing they could turn right around and sell them to the guy in line behind them for double what they paid.

But around 4:45am something happened. The sun peaked up from behind the horizon. The dancing stopped. The music stopped. People started going home. Slowly at first, but in increasing numbers they headed out of the party, unsold tickets littering the ground like a carpet of insanity.

By 6:30am official clean up crews had arrived, assessing the night's damage, and cleaning up the thick mat of unsold tickets. In the distance a small group of determined die hards could be heard still singing, as could a couple of lone voices shouting "get your tickets now, before we're out! they aren't printing anymore you know!"

140   Randy H   ignore (0)   2007 Sep 11, 7:13am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

I don't post over at Zillow anymore. Not since they selectively removed a number of my comments on buying without using a buying agent, then when someone else called them on it (not me), they denied they ever selectively remove posts. In fact, I ran into that Donald guy over there who started stalking my every comments with offensive name calling. I flagged those, and they deleted a bunch of them, so they do selectively delete comments.

By the way, whoever banned Donald from Patrick's, he thinks it was me and seems obsessed by it now. Kinda a chuckle.

Anyway, some of you saw me arguing with many of the realtors over there last week. One of those threads was "RealtorSandy", a particularly shining example of a NAR cheerleader. She's in Sonoma, by the way. Where's Athena when we need her, lol. "RealtorSandy" has been showered with agreement, compliments, and obviously sham-buyer "questions" since I and others were purged. So much for Zillow. For me, it's official now.

By the way, at least 3 of my more pointed comments were removed from the "Sandy" thread. Like with most NAR realtorcheerleaders, consider the following all one big "[sic]".
---

wow, A few days away and this conversation is still going!! It must be on alot of peoples mind. Catherine you obviously are smart enough to ignore all the negativate input and go with what is right for you. Funny everyone has an opinion. If everyone who thinks that waiting is the answer. Then wait!! Go ahead, but don't be complaining when the market passes you buy. Like I said this right now is OPPORTUNITY. Strike a deal! Right now you have the time to look at the various homes for sale. You don't have to make the decision to buy at the first time out like before. Take a month , take 2, be active. What you will be saying is I should of......, but I just had to be right. Tell me if you had a brain tumor, would you consult with your local mechanic, because you just couldn't beleive what 12 top surgeons told you ???I have seen this happen before, back in the eary 90's. Maybe alot of you where in grade school and where not old enough to pay attention to it.

141   Jimbo   ignore (0)   2007 Sep 11, 7:18am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Randy dont forget that the EU and most of Asia doesnt have the inner city problem that we have here.

Why is that, do you think? I think it is because instead of busting them for petty drug crimes and sending them to Crime U (the prison system), in the EU they end up on the dole, smoking legal weed.

Personally, I prefer the European way of dealing with the chronically underemployed.

142   DinOR   ignore (0)   2007 Sep 11, 7:25am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

"paying *huge* cover charges at the door" LOL!

FWIW put me in the 1:00am crowd! That's already past my bed time.

"couldn't belEive what 12 top surgeons told you ???"

Seems to me a "top surgeon" would know how to spell, believe?

143   Peter P   ignore (0)   2007 Sep 11, 7:35am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

How about the born-rich ’socialite parasites’?

We should leave them alone. They are mostly harmless and they contribute to the economy by spending anyway.

Fair? No. But fairness is over-rated.

144   SFWoman   ignore (0)   2007 Sep 11, 7:38am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

The EU is much, much more of a welfare state than is the US, they just live in poor suburbs in rings around Paris and Milan, etc.. The 'Paris' riots were actually in the banlieus (and about 50% of the guys arrested were Portugese immigrants to France). I was living there at the time and didn't see any rioting in the city, although a car was set afire in the 3rd (common occurance in France). London had large sections of poor on the dole when I was living there, almost all were white Brits or Irish, that's obviously changed in the past 15 years, they are now whites, Indians and Pakistanis.

145   Peter P   ignore (0)   2007 Sep 11, 7:42am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Welfare is an excellent way to spread and popularize poverty.

146   Randy H   ignore (0)   2007 Sep 11, 8:32am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

New Thread: Get comfortable until Spring ‘08 (Bay Area)

(or, "neues Thema", keeping with the sprinkling in German trend of late 'round here)

147   HARM   ignore (0)   2007 Sep 11, 8:34am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

They are mostly harmless and they contribute to the economy by spending anyway.

Hmmm... that's not much of a social "contribution" in the grand scheme of things. However, I'm sure the yacht builders, jewelers, limo drivers, maids and Italian clothing designers, would all agree with you.

Q: do vandals "contribute" to the economy by destroying property (which then has to be rebuilt/replaced)?

148   Randy H   ignore (0)   2007 Sep 11, 8:38am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

A: In pure, heartless economic terms, they are so long as the capital they are destroying is infrastructure capital. If they are destroying discretionary capital, then that is a deadweight loss.

149   Peter P   ignore (0)   2007 Sep 11, 8:51am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

However, I’m sure the yacht builders, jewelers, limo drivers, maids and Italian clothing designers, would all agree with you.

No one stops you from starting or buying stocks in these businesses. :)

150   Paul189   ignore (0)   2007 Sep 11, 8:57am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Q: do vandals “contribute” to the economy by destroying property (which then has to be rebuilt/replaced)?

This is what the popular media always reports. More death and destruction means more jobs and economic growth!

CRAZY!

151   Different Sean   ignore (0)   2007 Sep 11, 9:04am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Peter P Says:
We definitely need a welfare reform. Welfare is meant to help people getting back on their own feet. It is not designed to sustain social parasites.

Aren't landlords social parasites? Using their control over land to exploit others for a passive income?

152   HARM   ignore (0)   2007 Sep 11, 9:06am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

In pure, heartless economic terms, they are so long as the capital they are destroying is infrastructure capital.

Interesting take on the "broken windows" hypothesis. I wonder if it would be possible to spur a new infrastructure construction boom by encouraging people to destroy old, decaying public works.

Demolish an obsolete school/bridge = become a real financial hero? Gives a whole new meaning to the concept of "public service". Sign me up! ;-)

153   Different Sean   ignore (0)   2007 Sep 11, 9:08am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

Peter P Says:
How about the born-rich ’socialite parasites’?

We should leave them alone. They are mostly harmless and they contribute to the economy by spending anyway.

Fair? No. But fairness is over-rated.

So let us conclude there is no logic to anything Peter P says, he is just a 'conservative' in the true sense of the word, a laissez-faireist who says that everything is good the way it is regardless, but his quiet subtextual message is that he is actually for anything that makes the upper class social parasites even richer... Pretty standard Republican message... and if you are *not* one of the upper class social parasites and leeches and vote Republican, that makes you pretty much the biggest fool on the planet...

154   Peter P   ignore (0)   2007 Sep 11, 9:09am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Aren’t landlords social parasites? Using their control over land to exploit others for a passive income?

In a word, no.

Social parasites are those who lives off government programs (tax money).

155   Different Sean   ignore (0)   2007 Sep 11, 9:13am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

Q: do vandals “contribute” to the economy by destroying property (which then has to be rebuilt/replaced)?

Well, GDP certainly goes up the more rebuilding there is to be done. You could even strike a comparison with trashing Iraq's infrastructure to rebuild it using American contractors and crony capitalist buddies' firms -- is that vandalism on a grand, international scale also? Not to mention the high economic cost of making weapons of war then using them up on 'the enemy'...

Reminds me of the glaziers who were in court recently for going around smashing shop windows at night then putting their business sticker on the damage and awaiting the repair call... bit embarassing to be caught tho...

156   Peter P   ignore (0)   2007 Sep 11, 9:13am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (2)   quote   flag        

, but his quiet subtextual message is that he is actually for anything that makes the upper class social parasites even richer

That is a consequence that I do not like to see. I dream of a society in which everyone is happy, content, and productive.

But I try to refrain from value judgment in economic matters. My aforementioned dream is unattainable. We can only settle for what human nature can bring us.

157   Different Sean   ignore (0)   2007 Sep 11, 9:16am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Peter P Says:
Aren’t landlords social parasites? Using their control over land to exploit others for a passive income?

In a word, no.

Social parasites are those who lives off government programs (tax money).

In a word, yes. A social parasite is someone who lives off others (society) and does very little by way of recognisable work in the exchange. Isn't a landlord living off others for doing essentially no work? And getting a property paid off into the bargain? Surely it doesn't matter if it's private or public money.

158   Peter P   ignore (0)   2007 Sep 11, 9:17am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

My message: the world will be better if we do not all try to insist on doing the "right" thing. Here, the exercise of "moral judgment" will only lead to contentions of incompatible value systems.

159   Different Sean   ignore (0)   2007 Sep 11, 9:19am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

Peter P Says:
That is a consequence that I do not like to see. I dream of a society in which everyone is happy, content, and productive.

a-ha -- that sounds like a Marxian Utopia... you can start with a progressive income tax and socia1ised medicine to increase happiness and contentedness -- like the Swedish social democratic model of 'socia1ism by degrees', improving one area at a time... cf. HMOs as a business model for healthcare provision...

160   Peter P   ignore (0)   2007 Sep 11, 9:21am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Utopia sounds too utopic to be practical.

161   Randy H   ignore (0)   2007 Sep 11, 9:22am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

The renewal of "capital stock" in econospeak is one of those counterintuitive things about economics that simply strikes people as "just plain wrong" on an emotional and moral level, but anyone thinking about it abstractly is able to say "but of course".

The problem is one of balance. If lawlessness abounds then no one will bother to invest in new capital stock or replacement of old/damaged/depreciated capital stock because they'll view it as a sure-loss scenario. So we have to protect capital well enough to encourage investment. But if we overprotect it, then it ends up as nothing more than obsolete ornaments impeding the only true source of economic growth over the long run: technological productivity improvements.

Broken windows: if windows were never broken then old, less efficient windows would seldom if ever be replaced, and over time a drag builds up because the old windows are less effective at insulating and result in unnecessary spending on energy consumption. But, if you go around breaking all the windows any time you wish, then no one will replace them, and even more energy will be lost.

162   Different Sean   ignore (0)   2007 Sep 11, 9:23am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

But I try to refrain from value judgment in economic matters. My aforementioned dream is unattainable. We can only settle for what human nature can bring us.

Just on this human nature thing, my baby niece is just 2 years old -- we went to the park to feed the ducks recently and took a loaf of bread -- when another family came over to look at the ducks, without bread, she immediately went over to the kids and gave them her piece. She is always doing things like this, without prompting, and since she was much younger and unable to even talk or understand much. Where would she get this altruism from?

163   Different Sean   ignore (0)   2007 Sep 11, 9:29am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

Broken windows: if windows were never broken then old, less efficient windows would seldom if ever be replaced, and over time a drag builds up because the old windows are less effective at insulating

lol randy. I assume this is irony. double glazing or thicker glass provides better insulation, not replacing like with like, of course, which is all the glaziers would have done. as it turns out, perspex is a much better insulator and sound-proofer than glass, as it traps radiant infrared heat better, but it's more expensive by unit area. the judge didn't consider they were doing a social good for some reason, but were acting in 'unenlightened self interest' (my words, not his)...

164   Peter P   ignore (0)   2007 Sep 11, 9:31am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

People behave very differently as a group.

165   Different Sean   ignore (0)   2007 Sep 11, 9:38am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

We should leave them alone. They are mostly harmless and they contribute to the economy by spending anyway.

hmm, that's the welfare people we're talking about, isn't it?

166   Jimbo   ignore (0)   2007 Sep 11, 10:47am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Welfare is an excellent way to spread and popularize poverty.

Because of course, there was so much less poverty in the 1800's before welfare.

Right?

167   Peter P   ignore (0)   2007 Sep 11, 6:32pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Because of course, there was so much less poverty in the 1800’s before welfare.

Capitalism was much less developed in the 1800's. Poverty back then was reinforced by an implicit cast system. It was a social-cultural issue.

168   salk   ignore (0)   2007 Sep 12, 5:24am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

19th century saw the greatest advancement in civilization. Not until the 1990's did we even proportionately match the level of international trade seen in the 1890's. We have yet to match the rate of economic growth seen in the 19th century. We have conditioned to accept 2% economic growth by our govt masters.

169   realist   ignore (0)   2007 Oct 3, 2:28pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag        

In my opinion home prices are only just now beginning to go down. Loan appraisal procedures are being tightened, to what they should have been in the first place. This will eliminate many potential buyers without proper income.

Notice that prime lending rates were dropped by 0.5%, and will probably be dropped another 0.25% or 0.5% at the next fed meeting. I thing this is a way for the fed to provide the banks a window of opportunity to recoup some money that they lost in hedge funds. The sudden spurt in the stock market is likely to cool off after the holiday season. Several banks would've gone under had it not been for the interest rate cuts.

The era of the free-money for home buyers is over for now. The housing market, especially in the bay area will likely have all the time in the world to cool off in the next few years.

One of the elements of surprise is - a likely war in the middle east. That will provide a breather at least for the falling US dollar, and also bring down the Euro, and restore back the Greenback as the most favorable currency.

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