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Ya'll remember when Jerry Sienfeld told Apu, that he should make his native Pakistani food at his restaurant, then he did and know one came?
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2023 Dec 12, 5:40pm 1,804 views 50 comments
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43
RWSGFY
2023 Dec 17, 9:09pm
RWSGFY
2023 Dec 17, 9:09pm
It might very well be that every ICE car manufacturer will get out of the EV business while Tesla stays and remains the one and only EV manufacturer owning the whole niche (as is the case right now). I'm starting to think that all these silly "mandates" will not be implemented in the US (and will be implemented and then reversed in Europe).
So no real mass transition to EVs and Tesla staying around and doing well might not be as mutually exclusive as many seem to think.
So no real mass transition to EVs and Tesla staying around and doing well might not be as mutually exclusive as many seem to think.
44
Eman
2023 Dec 17, 9:34pm
Eman
2023 Dec 17, 9:34pm
RWSGFY says
Good observation. OEM manufacturers can’t scale, can’t provide supercharging infrastructure for their EV, and can’t make a profit selling EV. However, they have the politicians in their pocket. Your thesis may play out.
It might very well be that every ICE car manufacturer will get out of the EV business while Tesla stays and remains the one and only EV manufacturer owning the whole niche (as is the case right now). I'm starting to think that all these silly "mandates" will not be implemented in the US (and will be implemented and then reversed in Europe).
So no real mass transition to EVs and Tesla staying around and doing well might not be as mutually exclusive as many seem to think.
Good observation. OEM manufacturers can’t scale, can’t provide supercharging infrastructure for their EV, and can’t make a profit selling EV. However, they have the politicians in their pocket. Your thesis may play out.
45
WookieMan
2023 Dec 18, 6:25am
WookieMan
2023 Dec 18, 6:25am
Eman says
Dude.... Musk is the biggest government grifter in our lifetimes. The guy literally blows rockets up as "tests" with government money and has the government pay for people's cars. Then charges an obscene monthly fee for Starlink that tax payers paid for and most cannot afford.
I have no problem with him, but he's waaaaaaaaaaay deeper in the pockets of government than Ford or Chevy. Go do some math on it. Outside of the MIC, no other single person has gotten more government money in the time frame he has. If people are into green and carbon, he's probably put more into the atmosphere as an individual. He's dumb enough to not realize that a rocket thrust will destroy the living shit out of a launch pad without planning. An interviewer literally changed the design on his rockets. This guy gets billions and billions yet people think Tesla is green and good?
That's what we're trying to tell you and Socal. Sure you "can" do all this, but is it right? I'd say no. We don't have to agree, but as someone that actually pays taxes (you do) it's a bit frustrating from my (our) perspective. I'm libertarian leaning and free capital. Tesla is not remotely either of those. He milks the governments tit. And I get the game and he's playing it. I don't think it's right is all. No one should really unless they're capitalist socialist.
However, they have the politicians in their pocket. Your thesis may play out.
Dude.... Musk is the biggest government grifter in our lifetimes. The guy literally blows rockets up as "tests" with government money and has the government pay for people's cars. Then charges an obscene monthly fee for Starlink that tax payers paid for and most cannot afford.
I have no problem with him, but he's waaaaaaaaaaay deeper in the pockets of government than Ford or Chevy. Go do some math on it. Outside of the MIC, no other single person has gotten more government money in the time frame he has. If people are into green and carbon, he's probably put more into the atmosphere as an individual. He's dumb enough to not realize that a rocket thrust will destroy the living shit out of a launch pad without planning. An interviewer literally changed the design on his rockets. This guy gets billions and billions yet people think Tesla is green and good?
That's what we're trying to tell you and Socal. Sure you "can" do all this, but is it right? I'd say no. We don't have to agree, but as someone that actually pays taxes (you do) it's a bit frustrating from my (our) perspective. I'm libertarian leaning and free capital. Tesla is not remotely either of those. He milks the governments tit. And I get the game and he's playing it. I don't think it's right is all. No one should really unless they're capitalist socialist.
46
socal2
2023 Dec 18, 9:29am
WookieMan says
You couldn't be more wrong and misinformed.
For starters, Tesla hasn't gotten any government incentive that is not available to all of the other OEM's. Tesla was just smart to use that money to invest in improved manufacturing and not artificially goose their stock price to make compliance cars like the others did. Tesla also payed back their initial government loan in full with interest while others like GM had to be bailed out by the tax payers again and again.
SpaceX has already saved the US Government BILLIONS by creating low cost re-usable rockets that can get people and material into orbit at a fraction of the cost of the Space Shuttle, Russian rockets and the other bloated US space contractors.
Look how much tonnage SpaceX has put up in Q3 alone compared to the rest of the world. Not even close.
Dude.... Musk is the biggest government grifter in our lifetimes. The guy literally blows rockets up as "tests" with government money and has the government pay for people's cars. Then charges an obscene monthly fee for Starlink that tax payers paid for and most cannot afford.
You couldn't be more wrong and misinformed.
For starters, Tesla hasn't gotten any government incentive that is not available to all of the other OEM's. Tesla was just smart to use that money to invest in improved manufacturing and not artificially goose their stock price to make compliance cars like the others did. Tesla also payed back their initial government loan in full with interest while others like GM had to be bailed out by the tax payers again and again.
SpaceX has already saved the US Government BILLIONS by creating low cost re-usable rockets that can get people and material into orbit at a fraction of the cost of the Space Shuttle, Russian rockets and the other bloated US space contractors.
Look how much tonnage SpaceX has put up in Q3 alone compared to the rest of the world. Not even close.
47
socal2
2023 Dec 18, 9:34am
Eman says
All of the other OEM's are basically a bankrupt pension fund that build cars on the side. They are all structurally fucked with unions and dealership models building cars that can't hold a candle to Tesla performance and quality. Tesla's already work for the majority of US drivers except the huge population in Illinois that apparently has to haul massive trailers and drive 2000 miles each week visiting grandma.
The OEM's that survive will have Tesla batteries, software and powertrains running their cars like all the computers in the 90' and 00's had "Intel Inside".
Good observation. OEM manufacturers can’t scale, can’t provide supercharging infrastructure for their EV, and can’t make a profit selling EV. However, they have the politicians in their pocket. Your thesis may play out.
All of the other OEM's are basically a bankrupt pension fund that build cars on the side. They are all structurally fucked with unions and dealership models building cars that can't hold a candle to Tesla performance and quality. Tesla's already work for the majority of US drivers except the huge population in Illinois that apparently has to haul massive trailers and drive 2000 miles each week visiting grandma.
The OEM's that survive will have Tesla batteries, software and powertrains running their cars like all the computers in the 90' and 00's had "Intel Inside".
49
WookieMan
2023 Dec 18, 10:28am
WookieMan
2023 Dec 18, 10:28am
socal2 says
I can do that. Thanks for proving my point. A Tesla can't.
You city/suburban dwellers will never understand. There's not one Tesla in my town. It's not a feasible car outside of coastal areas and super urban areas specifically. You guys need to travel more. It's a city golf cart. That's it. There's nothing else to it. I've driven them. I know multiple owners with them. It's an average car, that for now saves you $100/mo in gas best case once you factor in charging.
I don't think you guys are getting it. I'm not arguing with you or anyone. Business and government WILL 100% get their money. Government for sure is not getting it for roads currently. Your golf cart is going to get a lot more expensive ignoring the out the door price tag. I'm not wrong. Won't be wrong. Again, enjoy it now. No one has given me an example of how EV's are going to pay for the roads they use. I'll wait....
Tesla's already work for the majority of US drivers except the huge population in Illinois that apparently has to haul massive trailers and drive 2000 miles each week visiting grandma.
I can do that. Thanks for proving my point. A Tesla can't.
You city/suburban dwellers will never understand. There's not one Tesla in my town. It's not a feasible car outside of coastal areas and super urban areas specifically. You guys need to travel more. It's a city golf cart. That's it. There's nothing else to it. I've driven them. I know multiple owners with them. It's an average car, that for now saves you $100/mo in gas best case once you factor in charging.
I don't think you guys are getting it. I'm not arguing with you or anyone. Business and government WILL 100% get their money. Government for sure is not getting it for roads currently. Your golf cart is going to get a lot more expensive ignoring the out the door price tag. I'm not wrong. Won't be wrong. Again, enjoy it now. No one has given me an example of how EV's are going to pay for the roads they use. I'll wait....
50
Eric Holder
2023 Dec 18, 11:09am
Eric Holder
2023 Dec 18, 11:09am
WookieMan says
CA tacks on an EV-specific registration fee since 2020:
https://electrek.co/2020/07/10/california-starts-charging-ev-registration-fees-up-to-175-in-july/
$175 is on par with what an owner of 35-40mpg hybrid driving 12-15K miles per year will pay in CA gas taxes.
No one has given me an example of how EV's are going to pay for the roads they use. I'll wait....
CA tacks on an EV-specific registration fee since 2020:
https://electrek.co/2020/07/10/california-starts-charging-ev-registration-fees-up-to-175-in-july/
$175 is on par with what an owner of 35-40mpg hybrid driving 12-15K miles per year will pay in CA gas taxes.
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Then without thinking, all of the other important decision morons, jumped on board and said "Not only that, but let's make gas cars so expensive nobody can afford them!"
Well now there's this.
https://www.ericpetersautos.com/2023/12/11/theyre-stacking-up/
I think Joe Biden giving 6 billion to build EV charging stations, then did dickall with those tax dollars. And the fact that people realize they have to spend 20 to 40 thousand dollar just to install an EV charger at their home, is a real buzzkill. No the EV chargers themselves don't cost 40K to install. But most people's house electric panel is already maxed out, and the Electric company is only giving them 200amp service. Many houses will need the Electric company install a bigger amperage meter box and run a thicker wire. Then from there have to wire in subpanels, or replace the inside main breaker panel.
Even many companies had to upgrade their electric so their CEOs and other executives could have a charger installed in their parking spots.
Combine that with the resent press, that people are having a hard time finding chargers when they venture outside of their Nerdiehood, where there's chargers, to areas where there are none. They can't make long trips, because of the lack of charging stations in between. But not only that even if there are chargers in between. It turns out with so many EVs on the road, you can expect a two hour wait, to wait your turn for the charger.
That Jerry Seinfeld is a baaaad MAN, verdy BAD!