patrick.net

Learning a trade skill like plumbing or coding or electrician work is worth more money than almost any MFA or BA.
All jobs are trade skills you have to develop with OTJ training. Better to get the training and then go back to school should the job or company want you to do so. Oftentimes they’ll pay for it at that point. And online classes are growing exponentially in prevalence, makes it much easier to gain credits in one’s spare time.

Quigley says

And online classes are growing exponentially in prevalence, makes it much easier to gain credits in one’s spare time.

I suggest hiring plumbers who learned plumbing in online classes.

The unfair thing is that Mark wants a wife and Megan says yes. Now he has to pay off her debt too.

Quigley says

The unfair thing is that Mark wants a wife and Megan says yes. Now he has to pay off her debt too.

Ouch! Now that's a zinger!

Join Rin-Wah Law and none of that will ever happen.

http://patrick.net/post/1326134/2019-07-30-between-now-and-the-decade-when-feminism-ends

d6rB says

Quigley says

And online classes are growing exponentially in prevalence, makes it much easier to gain credits in one’s spare time.

I suggest hiring plumbers who learned plumbing in online classes.

Considering that Penn State offers Nuclear Engineering online, I wouldn't be so judgemental.

https://www.worldcampus.psu.edu/degrees-and-certificates/nuclear-engineering-masters/overview

Rin says

Nuclear Engineering online

oh fucking shit...time to move away from nuclear power plants

d6rB says

Rin says

Nuclear Engineering online

oh fucking shit...time to move away from nuclear power plants

As for my old field of study (prior to finance), Applied Chemistry/Chemical Engineering ...

Here's Columbia University ...

https://cvn.columbia.edu/program/columbia-university-chemical-engineering-masters-degree-masters-science

And Johns Hopkins highly related Applied Biomedical Engineering program ...

https://ep.jhu.edu/programs-and-courses/programs/applied-biomedical-engineering

Rin says

Applied Biomedical Engineering program

That is something new with a fancy and deceitful name, ergo it will be used for extra money extraction from students

Rin says

Applied Chemistry/Chemical Engineering

Have not seen any chemist with "online education" degree at companies I often go to. I have seen "online education" in geosciences (MS degree) at a few schools incl ours, and it is basically a US degree mill where rich people from Colombia, Brazil etc get degrees to flaunt in their countries. These degrees are given to anyone who can pay $$$ "no learning required"

d6rB says

Rin says

Applied Chemistry/Chemical Engineering

Have not seen any chemist with "online education" degree at companies I often go to. I have seen "online education" in geosciences (MS degree) at a few schools incl ours, and it is basically a US degree mill where rich people from Colombia, Brazil etc get degrees to flaunt in their countries. These degrees are given to anyone who can pay $$$ "no learning required"

Actually, our former receptionist did this exact program at Columbia and passed the patent agent exam. She's now pulling a six figure income at a patent law firm. In reality, who wants to be a chemist when it's actually easier to become a doctor or a lawyer (or Patent Agent) with less offshoring.

And if these are schools have names like Penn State, Johns Hopkins, or Columbia, why would anyone care if it's for rich internationals or locals trying to spruce up their resume?

It's a Masters, so I'm assuming lots of theory, the core hands on stuff was covered in the Bachelor's of Science.

We had people who were HS Educated and a year or two in the Navy running our nuke plants for half a century.

d6rB says

Have not seen any chemist with "online education" degree at companies I often go to.

Yes, because neither Penn State nor Columbia tells you that it's online and not on campus. In fact, you may have met, lots of candidates with online credentials where the registrar's office didn't distinguish between the two.

Rin says

why would anyone care if it's for rich internationals or locals trying to spruce up their resume?

That is fine, school earns money, and rich dipshits have something to put on their resumes. However, this does not apply to people who actually contribute to new plant/equipment designs, or development of new technologies (make new drugs/methods how to make new drugs). I do not see how one can avoid lab experience there.

Rin says

In reality, who wants to be a chemist when it's easier to actually become a doctor or a lawyer.

True and sad - lawyers are leeches whose contribution to society is usually measured in production of "billing hours". While chemists brought you penicillin, Teflon, and so on.

HonkpilledMaster says

It's a Masters, so I'm assuming lots of theory, the core hands on stuff was covered in the Bachelor's of Science.

We had people who were HS Educated and a year or two in the Navy running our nuke plants for half a century.

Yes, but a person could have started in the humanities, like economics, and added the lab courses ala carte for his preqs.

d6rB says

While chemists brought you penicillin, Teflon, and so on.

A lot of that stuff was discovered by accident. And since Father DuPont (or pick your favorite megalith) owns the rights, who cares? That's called getting the proverbial pat on the back for a measly 401K plan but with a chance of layoff at 50 years of age.

Heck, in contrast, many Massachusetts police officers retire in 20 years with a pension paying between $70K to $100K/yr for life.

Rin says

Yes, because neither Penn State nor Columbia tells you that it's online and not on campus. In fact, you may have met, lots of candidates with online credentials where the registrar's office didn't distinguish between the two.

Nope, because even at MS level they will not hire without applicant having published research work, which can not be done online. They also specifically hire from research groups - so someone with online degree with no research publications and no research experience in a group will not be hired. Exxon has a list of research groups they hire from, and so do many pharmaceutical companies.

Rin says

Heck, in contrast, many Massachusetts police officers retire in 20 years with a pension paying between $70K to $100K/yr for life.

Again, sad but true. Unfortunately we all can not be police or doctors who treat them, or lawyers who defend them in courts after they shoot a few blacks/rednecks etc

d6rB says

Nope, because even at MS level they will not hire without applicant having published research work, which can not be done online. They also specifically hire from research groups - so someone with online degree with no research publications and no research experience in a group will not be hired. Exxon has a list of research groups they hire from, and so do many pharmaceutical companies.

First of all, these ppl have ABC corp on their resume. That's the way out of the sciences, if Morgan & Stanley comes knocking on their door. M&S likes names like Columbia & Johns Hopkins.

Then, if they want, take a sabbatical to do research on-campus w/o paying coursework tuition and work on publishing their work. This opens both avenues, one for a career in industrial R&D and a second, in finance or some other monied field like consulting.

Rin says

Then, if they want, take a sabbatical to do research on-campus w/o paying tuition and work on publishing their work. This opens both avenues, one for a career in industrial R&D and a second, in finance or some other monied field like consulting.

Have not seen anyone here doing sabbatical according to this system, and don't know anyone who would take person like that in his lab as they would lack any lab experience. In fact, doing experimental chemistry and chem E MS and PhD is free! anyway, and you are paid some sort of stipend if you work for advisor who has research funds. My MS/PhD students do not pay any tuition/fees, and they get paid (not a very large but salary) from private grants we have.

The online school products all must have gone to the finance field.

d6rB says

Have not seen anyone here doing sabbatical according to this system, and don't know anyone who would take person like that in his lab as they would lack any lab experience. In fact, doing experimental chemistry and chem E MS and PhD is free! anyway, and you are paid some sort of stipend if you work for advisor who has research funds. My MS/PhD students do not pay any tuition, and they get paid something from private grants we have.

The online school products all must have gone to the finance field.

The idea is to diversify.

And yes, a number of ppl do lab sabbaticals all over the Boston to DC corridor because many want to go into health care, like medical school. I did one during & after college, at an away institute and after my 1st paper was published, I moved onto industry as that what was needed if I later wanted to go MD/PhD.

And since you live in the Texas Triangle, you probably don't know about any of this.

A lot of ppl on the east coast, look to go into management, finance, consulting, etc, instead of staying in core R&D because it's prone to layoffs and offshoring, just like Dow/DuPont/Honeywell(Allied Signal) did to much of their east coast holdings during the 90s.

I'm glad that I'd left for the hedge fund stuff because that's what's made me my retirement package.

Rin says

did one during & after college, at an away institute and after my 1st paper was published, I moved onto industry as that what was needed if I later wanted to go MD/PhD.

You did not get an online degree, I presume? We have a few students from abroad or non-online schools in US nearly constantly for short projects.

Rin says

And since you live in the Texas Triangle you probably don't know about any of this.

A lot of ppl on the east coast, look to go into management, finance, consulting, etc, instead of staying in core R&D because it's prone to layoffs and offshoring, just like Dow/DuPont/Honeywell did to much of their east coast holdings during the 90s.

That kind of stuff (possibility of massive layoffs) worries me because of my former students. Luckily, they are doing really well (0 fired from their positions so far) and none of them were fired even in last recession. Key is to become indispensable to company, e.i. to have knowledge how particular process runs and avoid giving information to anyone else, in which case they will be very reluctant to fire you. Of course, job situation in TX has been excellent relative to the rest of country since early 2000's, and most of students stay here.

Last layoffs for Dupont CRD were very recent, when they merged with Dow about a year ago.

Overall tho I do agree with you that to a very large extent going into sciences is not the best career choice these days. However, it seems that even health professions are becoming not too good. Pharmacists can not get jobs, their salaries stagnate, and they are made to work more and more. From what I hear, physicians assistants are the best career choice recently.

Chemistry labs are hands on, like plumber training. I’ve had a fair amount of both, earning a bachelors in Chemistry 20 years ago, and doing a lot of my own plumber work around my house. Just two weekends ago I had to go rent a rooter machine (Home depot has a department for that) and root out the drain for my kitchen sink. Cost me $65 for the rental and insurance, but a plumber would have cost at least double... more on a Sunday which it was. Nasty job... but hands wash and clothes clean. Mike Rowe would have approved.

Quigley says

Chemistry labs are hands on, like plumber training.

Or cooking for organic and inorganic labs. Chem is probably the most hands-on discipline - and often students who are very "book-smart" don't do well in labs/research, while average ones are very good. One needs extremely good dexterity and lots of common sense to avoid accidents and to make product.

www.youtube.com/embed/p8M2tg2RkIQ

Obligatory

Been doing my own electrical work for a while, it saves a lot. Glad I learned enough to handle it.

d6rB says

You did not get an online degree, I presume?

Didn't even know about the possibility, back in the day. Today, I would have gotten one and skipped HS altogether. I could do research during the day at Harvard affiliated institutes, to build the old resume. I actually helped mentor one of their programs which allow 15-16 year olds to conduct research.

d6rB says

Overall tho I do agree with you that to a very large extent going into sciences is not the best career choice these days.

Yes, I've told this to every student I've met, who's not pre-Google, premed, prelaw, finance, or management consulting.

d6rB says

Pharmacists can not get jobs, their salaries stagnate

The good thing is that the clarion call for the original Pharmacist shortage ended back in 2012 whereas for STEM, there's always this propaganda ministry telling everyone to study science & engineering. And in many ways, the reason why Pharmacists are suffering is that they don't have 'provider' status which means that all they can do is dispense pills, something which is highly prone towards wage deflation and automation whereas nurses & PAs are providers and have 'consulting' rates associated with their line of work.

Quigley says

Just two weekends ago I had to go rent a rooter machine (Home depot has a department for that) and root out the drain for my kitchen sink. Cost me $65 for the rental and insurance, but a plumber would have cost at least double... more on a Sunday which it was. Nasty job... but hands wash and clothes clean. Mike Rowe would have approved.

The thing here is that no local facility around my parts will allow for layperson, even one with a Chemistry or Chemical Engineering degree, to do plumbing work without being licensed. And thus, unlike a chemist earning let's say $40K/yr as a lab assistant at some university setting, no plumber will ever earn less than $80K in Massachusetts and many have union benefits.

So, if you want to be a snob, get your chemistry degree part-time/online, take 4-5 lab courses (general, organic, physical, analytical) on-campus, so that it's "premed enabled", and work as an apprentice in the plumbing field. Chances are, you'll have a job for life and can always tell your snobby SJW friends that you're a facilities chemist. Nobody needs to know the specifics of one's job.

Rin says

no plumber will ever earn less than $80K in Massachusetts

Just got off the phone with a semi-retired plumber and he laughed at the $80K remark.

In his synopsis, the only fully licensed and experienced MA plumbers earning that, are ones who basically want only a 35-40 hour work week with full benefits. The rest, meaning the ones who pick up an overnight O/T or double-time weekend shift, here & there, easily clear six figures and even he earned $140K/yr for some 4-5 years while he was finishing up his mortgage.

Today, he's part-time and still clearing $50K. How's that for a retirement profession?!

I'm sorry but no career in chemistry, aside from making and dealing illegal drugs*, comes close to that.

*Note: Formula 51, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_51st_State

Rin says

In his synopsis, the only fully licensed and experienced MA plumbers earning that, are ones who basically want only a 35-40 hour work week with full benefits. The rest, meaning the ones who pick up an overnight O/T or double-time weekend shift, here & there, easily clear six figures and even he earned $140K/yr for some 4-5 years while he was finishing up his mortgage.

Yep, that checks out. Electricians make great money as well. But if I were to change trades from cranes to something else, I’d go with elevators. Those guys make bank, and although the work has its ups and downs (heh) they always are busy.