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What Both Sides Don't Get About American Gun Culture


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2019 Aug 6, 7:45am   5,125 views  57 comments

by Patrick   ➕follow (55)   💰tip   ignore  

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/08/04/mass-shooting-gun-culture-227502

One of the most authoritative and interesting surveys of the attitudes of gun owners was conducted by the Pew Research Center in 2017. That survey shows the vast majority of Americans who own guns are not members of the NRA and that most favor some form of gun control. However, most refrain from pushing for greater regulation of guns because they neither trust the government nor believe that it will protect them. They often resent the disdain for their way of life of the kind expressed by President Barack Obama when he suggested they “cling to guns or religion” as a way of expressing “antipathy to people who aren't like them … as a way to explain their frustrations." They see themselves as on their own in a dangerous world.

The sale, manufacture, distribution, purchase and production of guns, as well as the views of their owners, are, in part, responses to the perceived weakness of the government and the perceived need for constant vigilance and a concomitant interpersonal fear. As dangerous weapons, guns offer a form of direct power in a world where trust and civic belonging are in short supply.


Why do we have a country where trust and civic belonging are in short supply?

https://archive.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/08/05/the_downside_of_diversity/

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1   WookieMan   2019 Aug 6, 8:02am  

Patrick says
Why do we have a country where trust and civic belonging are in short supply?


Because it's too hard to track what the fuck is going on with government for just one individual. You then have to trust the media to relay information and they fuck that up most the time. So by default you don't trust much.

Not going to dox myself, but just had an issue in my community recently (a few). Two different government bodies. One decision cost my family $500 this year for an absolutely senseless project for the school district. The other will up a quarterly bill to the tune of $50/qtr. Their board meetings happen on the same day and time. Yet we have morons that say, "go to a meeting and voice your opinion." I can't be in two fucking places at once ass wad.

So then this senseless project gets pushed through. The money doesn't influence me personally one way or another, but there are people on fixed incomes/budgets in my community and it pisses them off when they see waste.

Government by its own design wants to be clandestine. They don't want push back from the people that voted them in. They want to avoid conflict. They don't want their actions being watched. Government is technically adversarial to many/most, hence why I think the whole gun thing is a sticking point. Plus, whether anyone wants to get into this argument or not, you can't depend on police/government when your life is in jeopardy from someone robbing your house or other criminal actions. If I need to defend myself, I'd at least like the fight to be equal if a criminal already broke a law to get a gun in the first place.
2   Bd6r   2019 Aug 6, 8:18am  

jazz_music says
Financial instability is driving everything at this point.

And difficulties for younger people to get meaningful blue-collar jobs, which may be part of what you wrote.

jazz_music says
Are people thinking they may end up living at a camp site and hunting for food?

That type of thinking is present, but most of people I know got guns for home protection because police is unreliable and more concerned about visiting donut shops and retiring at 45 to collect pension for 40 years. They will not come unless someone is shot. There was a fistfight on street near where I work, police was called, and they arrived 4 hours later.
3   Bd6r   2019 Aug 6, 8:20am  

Patrick says
Why do we have a country where trust and civic belonging are in short supply?

Government and politicians do not have an exactly stellar record with respect to sticking to their words. Remember Gay Rights - initially it is equal rights...which is logical and fair...then it is marriage...fine if they do not force churches to perform them...then it is BAKE MY CAKE BIGOT! and WAX MY FEMALE BALLS BIGOT! which is not fine any more. A step in this direction eventually leads to an avalanche of overreach.
4   Bd6r   2019 Aug 6, 8:28am  

jazz_music says
They'll come immediately if it is a store, a bank, or any kind of public place where money is blown.

Interesting theory, will have to look at it but seems very plausible. Shopping malls here usually have at least one off-duty policeman in more affluent parts of city. Again, WIN-WIN! We pay taxes and police earn overtime pay simultaneously.
5   Shaman   2019 Aug 6, 8:29am  

jazz_music says
d6rB says
There was a fistfight on street a year ago near where I work, police was called, and they arrived 4 hours later.
They'll come immediately if it is a store, a bank, or any kind of public place where money is blown.


So what we have isn’t public safety but safety for commercial assets. The public isn’t blind. Is it any wonder that they want guns to provide themselves with self-defense? Isn’t self-defense a human right?
6   Bd6r   2019 Aug 6, 8:31am  

Quigley says
Isn’t self-defense a human right?

Only if you are member of the Masters of Universe class, such as politicians and billionaires. Then State will protect you and your property.
7   RWSGFY   2019 Aug 6, 8:55am  

WookieMan says
Yet we have morons that say, "go to a meeting and voice your opinion."


They don't give a fuck about your opinion. When libby fucks were holding a meeting on closing Chabot shooting range there were dozens of opponents present at that meeting and not a single person (except for the board, of course) who was for it. The fuckers went ahead and closed it anyway.
8   Patrick   2019 Aug 6, 9:03am  

jazz_music says
Financial instability is driving everything at this point.

There was a palpable change in the public at large as people got second homes and huge mortgages that were almost UNIVERSALLY seen as wealth. Extravagent EVERYTHING, cars, vacations, jewelry, surgeries, remodeling, enlarging homes.

Do you remember those times at all?

There was a palpable change in the public at large as people started losing their "mortgage wealth" in 2007.

Meanness.

Anger

Rage

Most have given up on having a steady employer.

America probably looks like a mess to a 20 year old man under stress to get out and "stand on his own feet."


I agree with you to a large degree on this point @jazz_music

Ordinary people have suffered greatly under globalization. Their jobs were exported to China and millions of illegals were imported to keep wages low.

People feel they have no power, and they are right about that. They are being killed to appease the god of globalizsion.
9   marcus   2019 Aug 6, 9:10am  

:
IF congress implemented laws and or regulations based on what the people wanted, we would already have some form of universal healthcare.

The NRA is a MUCH different organization than it was 50 years ago. Now it's first and foremost a lobby for gun manufacturers.



10   GNL   2019 Aug 6, 9:18am  

HEYYOU says
Patrick says
Why do we have a country where trust and civic belonging are in short supply?


Delusional ,don't give a shit,Republican voters that don't care about anything but their political theology & blood & guns in the streets.

100s of Millions of guns in America will continue to kill Rep/Cons & their loved ones.
STFU! Stop that sobbing & crying over your dead loved ones if you aren't willing to try & correct the problem, the pissed-off.
Happy,equal,economic stable Americans are always the ones that shoot up a place?

Why do you hate your own god given rights?
11   MisdemeanorRebel   2019 Aug 6, 9:18am  

Patrick says
Why do we have a country where trust and civic belonging are in short supply?


Because Academia, Corporate PR/HR, Regulators, and the Media spend all their time Pissing off Peoria and demonizing the White Working/Middle Classes, more than half the population.

And then you have every Democratic candidate...
12   MisdemeanorRebel   2019 Aug 6, 9:20am  

marcus says


Rich Manhattanite from Kreative Klass lectures America. AGAIN. See my post above...
13   FortwayeAsFuckJoeBiden   2019 Aug 6, 9:21am  

Patrick I think part of the answer is that politicians start pissing and scaring people every 4 years for elections.

Many already know that pattern and don’t trust government or media. Because of perpetual lies.

No thinking person will entrust their safety to government that only cares about it’s own power.
14   marcus   2019 Aug 6, 9:39am  

HonkpilledMaster says
Rich Manhattanite from Kreative Klass lectures America


All the informed gun owners know that the NRA is nothing like what it was back in the day. This is accepted fact by everyone:

marcus says
The NRA is a MUCH different organization than it was 50 years ago. Now it's first and foremost a lobby for gun manufacturers.
15   MisdemeanorRebel   2019 Aug 6, 9:46am  

Around the same time that the media was focused on the mass shootings in El Paso and Dayton, 60 people were shot in Chicago over the weekend. 24 of those people were shot in four hours.

Baltimore reached its 200th murder victim of the year during its “Ceasefire Weekend”.

4 people were killed in 4 days in Kansas City. 6 men were shot in Philly during the filming of a rap video.

Even in Toronto, 15 people were wounded in shootings over the weekend. Over 350 people have been shot this year in the Canadian city which has gun control, no NRA, and none of the usual excuses.

This tide of violence has received less media coverage because it challenges the false claim that, as a CNN op-ed once put it, mass shootings are a “white man’s problem.”

"I would say our country should be more fearful of white men across our country because they are actually causing most of the deaths within this country," Rep. Ilhan Omar claimed on Al Jazeera.

"We have to stop demonizing people and realize the biggest terror threat in this country is white men," Don Lemon had previously claimed on CNN.

"White Men Have Committed More Mass Shootings Than Any Other Group," Newsweek had argued.

The perception that mass shootings are a “white man’s problem” lingers around the country because white mass shooters tend to get more publicity. And, the twisted young male who goes on a public shooting spree fits a certain kind of media narrative. But when we actually study the mass shootings that took place in 2019, it’s clear that Patrick Crusius and Connor Betts are not the norm, but aberrations.

Mass shooters have no particular ideology. Crusius and Betts were opposites ideologically. (Though both cared deeply about the environment.) Nor are mass shooters a white problem or a black problem. Over the same bloody weekend, William Patrick Williams, who is African-American, appeared in court after being arrested by the FBI for planning to shoot up a Texas hotel with an AK-47 rifle.

Looking at the data from the Mass Shooting Tracker, widely utilized by the media, as of this writing, of the 72 mass shooters, perpetrators in shootings that killed or wounded 4 or more people, whose race is known, 21 were white, 37 were black, 8 were Latino, and 6 were members of other groups.

51% of mass shooters in 2019 were black, 29% were white, and 11% were Latino.

Three mass shooters were Asian, two were American Indian and one was Arab.


These numbers are if anything vastly understated. As many as half of the mass shootings that took place in 2019 thus far remain unsolved, but they often took place in black areas and claimed black victims.


https://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/274538/51-mass-shooters-2019-were-black-only-29-were-daniel-greenfield

Since Whites are 60-70% of the population, White people are FAR LESS likely to commit mass shootings than Blacks, who are only 12% of the population.
16   Shaman   2019 Aug 6, 9:54am  

Look, Marcus. Everyone knows that the only way to eliminate gun violence is to eliminate gun ownership. Everything else is a feint or a dodge or a meaningless piece of paper making it illegal to do something that won’t prevent this kind of outrage.

And just so you don’t get fooled into thinking there’s an easy legislative solution: gun owners aren’t going to give up their guns. Making them criminals will only exacerbate the situation, perhaps making the very authority of government irrelevant. If you rule a nation of criminals, you have no leverage on your subjects but naked raw force and threat of imminent death. And people will respond to violence in kind, so that would lead directly to Civil War Part II and probably an end to the USA.

Are you ready for that? Something tells me that you’d be an early casualty in such a war. So you’re advocating for your own demise.

Unless you’re truly dense enough to have not realized this truth already.
17   marcus   2019 Aug 6, 10:10am  

Quigley says
Look, Marcus


Wtf ?

I don't want or expect guns to become illegal any time soon. And it's true that criminals would have guns even if many years ago we had done what we should have with laws for much better background checks, regulation of military assault rifles, silencers, devices that turn rifles in to automatic (almost machine gun), high tech safety features such as hand guns that only work for their owner and as many other sensible regulations as agreed upon by people other than the manufacturers.

Quigley says
Unless you’re truly dense enough


I can't believe there is someone reading my comments in this thread dense enough to assume that I was advocating taking away everyone's guns.

What the hell man. Get a grip !
19   Ceffer   2019 Aug 6, 10:40am  

So, the Dems are committed to making our society increasingly dangerous to the ordinary citizen, while making police protection non-existent, while taking away all guns that could be used for self protection.

Makes perfect sense.
20   HeadSet   2019 Aug 6, 10:42am  

Ceffer says
So, the Dems are committed to making our society increasingly dangerous to the ordinary citizen, while making police protection non-existent, while taking away all guns that could be used for self protection.

Makes perfect sense.



Add to that the ACLU making sure the crazies stay on the streets and not at institutions.
21   Bd6r   2019 Aug 6, 10:49am  

marcus says
I can't believe there is someone reading my comments in this thread dense enough to assume that I was advocating taking away everyone's guns.

You are not. Government eventually will take away private citizen's guns if we continue going down that slope.
It is already much more difficult to get a gun than it was in 1960's and before, when, by the way, murder rates were lower than now. When will there be enough restrictions on gun purchases? I'd guess only when guns will be outlawed and only Masters of Universe will be able to protect themselves by hiring armed goons.

https://www.wideopenspaces.com/time-machine-get-a-load-of-these-vintage-gun-ads/
23   marcus   2019 Aug 6, 11:07am  

HeadSet says
Add to that the ACLU making sure the crazies stay on the streets and not at institutions.


Could have fooled me. I thought all the crazy people no longer in institutions, going back to the Reagan era, was becasue the govt didn't want to pay for it.

Obviously it should be not a simple thing to keep someone in an institution against their will. But we don't even institutionalize crazy people that know they can't function in society and would gladly be institutionalized. Although we keep prison as an option.
24   GNL   2019 Aug 6, 11:11am  

marcus says
Quigley says
Look, Marcus


Wtf ?

I don't want or expect guns to become illegal any time soon. And it's true that criminals would have guns even if many years ago we had done what we should have with laws for much better background checks, regulation of military assault rifles, silencers, devices that turn rifles in to automatic (almost machine gun), high tech safety features such as hand guns that only work for their owner and as many other sensible regulations as agreed upon by people other than the manufacturers.

Quigley says
Unless you’re truly dense enough


I can't believe there is someone reading my comments in this thread dense enough to assume that I was advocating taking away everyone's guns.

What the hell man. Get a grip !

Marcus, you get a grip. Shall not be infringed has been infringed with every single gun law passed. Literally 10,000s of times. Go after the media, Hollywood, politicians (they are the ones ratcheting up the hate) and the drug industry.
25   GNL   2019 Aug 6, 11:15am  

marcus says
HonkpilledMaster says
Rich Manhattanite from Kreative Klass lectures America


All the informed gun owners know that the NRA is nothing like what it was back in the day. This is accepted fact by everyone:

marcus says
The NRA is a MUCH different organization than it was 50 years ago. Now it's first and foremost a lobby for gun manufacturers.

Who cares if they lobby for gun manufacturers? If they're not protected, noone is.
26   MisdemeanorRebel   2019 Aug 6, 11:31am  

I don't think decentralizing back to an Early Republic will work when it comes to the Xenophile/Transform America Fundamentally to Social Democracy vs. Traditional Western Liberal Nationalist Values - though I support the idea fairly strongly.

The Constitution has the Federal Government responsible for immigration.

CA, NY, IL love immigration, either legal or illegal, and a growing number want the borders totally open.

So we'll have the end game of Diversity - there's no longer one unifying overarching culture/belief system, so we'll have to fight it out, either politically or militarily.

Either is a win for Libertarian/Conservatives, for the simple reason that demographics favor Conservatives (liberals are childless) and so does gun ownership/military experience.

The few Progs that have military experience were mostly JAGs or Clerks. The Conservatives were Armored Cav and Special Forces and Infantry.
27   SunnyvaleCA   2019 Aug 6, 11:32am  

marcus says
IF congress implemented laws and or regulations based on what the people wanted, we would already have some form of universal healthcare.

And if Henry Ford implemented transportation based on what people said they wanted at the time, we'd all be riding (slightly) faster horses. That would be terrible. People are generally poorly informed, and groups of people often make poor decisions as a group. That is why we have a constitution that is supposed to overrule some of the "shortsightedness of the masses."

But if we're implementing "what the people want"...
• We wouldn't be paying 3x to 5x for drugs compared to the rest of the world.
• We would have law and order in the immigration system, where law-breakers are deported without exception.
• Immigration would be like most other 1st world systems, where there is an application process and immigration is based on merit. Having relatives in the country confers very little merit (i.e.: no chain migration). We would select only immigrations that are immediately and obviously helpful to the country.
• We wouldn't give any welfare or other services to people in the country illegally.
• Like all other 1st world countries (except Canada), we wouldn't give anchor babies citizenship. (Note that Canada doesn't have a border with a 3rd world country.)
• Police would be trustworthy and would never make a mistake. If you phone 911 during a breakin, they will arrive on the scene faster than you can ready your own firearm.
28   SunnyvaleCA   2019 Aug 6, 11:39am  

OccasionalCortex says
If America is to remain intact, it will HAVE to adopt a 'live & let live' attitude between the States. This means massive decentralization of issues/power over things we can not agree on a national level. And that includes issues that were previously 'decided' in the past to be national issues.

Does this mean that states should be allowed to control "immigration" from other states? Otherwise, you'll have states where the culture leads to enormous population and that population will spill into states where the culture leads to modest population and overrun them.
29   Automan Empire   2019 Aug 6, 12:33pm  

d6rB says
There was a fistfight on street near where I work, police was called, and they arrived 4 hours later.


Side topic to the main point of the thread. This is a poor litmus test of police performance. A cop once wrote, "The speed at which an officer rushes to a "fight" call is inversely proportional to the amount of time he's been on the force."
30   RWSGFY   2019 Aug 6, 12:40pm  

marcus says


Oh, looky here: marcus is advocating restricting someone's rights based on their religion.
31   marcus   2019 Aug 6, 1:56pm  

Of course we are a republic. But sometimes we do what is popular and wanted by the public.

Patrick says
That survey shows the vast majority of Americans who own guns are not members of the NRA and that most favor some form of gun control.


SunnyvaleCA says
People are generally poorly informed, and groups of people often make poor decisions as a group. That is why we have a constitution that is supposed to overrule some of the "shortsightedness of the masses."
32   zzyzzx   2019 Aug 6, 2:01pm  

d6rB says
That type of thinking is present, but most of people I know got guns for home protection because police is unreliable and more concerned about visiting donut shops and retiring at 45 to collect pension for 40 years. They will not come unless someone is shot. There was a fistfight on street near where I work, police was called, and they arrived 4 hours later.


In Baltimore City they would not bother to show up at all. Are you sure that the 4 hours later part wasn't just a coincidence?
33   Bd6r   2019 Aug 6, 2:20pm  

Automan Empire says
Side topic to the main point of the thread. This is a poor litmus test of police performance. A cop once wrote, "The speed at which an officer rushes to a "fight" call is inversely proportional to the amount of time he's been on the force."

Police response times are directly related to the main point of thread. Police is not there to serve and protect a regular citizen, they serve and protect their pensions and assorted corporations (banks, etc as Jazz mentioned).

They do not bother to show up and investigate thefts, if they catch thieves it is more by a stroke of luck, and even murder clearance rate in big cities is abysmally low.

A Hispanic friend of mine, who lives in barrio, has youth group members from Salva Maratrucha shooting automatic weapons in air in his neighborhood. He called police several times, and they never came. Third or forth time when he called the response was "it is you again, Mr. Martinez - what do you want?".
34   Bd6r   2019 Aug 6, 2:20pm  

zzyzzx says
In Baltimore City they would not bother to show up at all. Are you sure that the 4 hours later part wasn't just a coincidence?

They went into business next door (from which call was made) and took statement.
35   RWSGFY   2019 Aug 6, 3:15pm  

d6rB says
A Hispanic friend of mine, who lives in barrio, has youth group members from Salva Maratrucha shooting automatic weapons in air in his neighborhood.


This needs to be banned! Automatic weapons and criminal gangs should be illegal!
36   clambo   2019 Aug 7, 12:50am  

I think that there are about 4 kinds of people when it comes to guns; 1.own guns to shoot for fun at ranges 2. collect guns to the level of an arsenal 3. hunters 4. those appalled by guns entirely.

There is some overlap and some of the people from 1-3 like the idea of a concealed carry gun for self defense. Most of the guys I have met who shoot at a local gun club are professionals and not generally hunters. They all are annoyed that politicians think they're dangerous to society.

Guys who become obsessed with them tend to collect them since it's cheaper than collecting art or cars, or expensive watches. They modify them to perform better and sometimes get in contests. The funny thing is at the gun ranges/stores they know that once you get the bug you want more than one gun.

I got into shooting because my friend did it and his brother and I went along for fun. After a while I thought I should have one instead of borrowing the one I was shooting since I imagined the owner would be happier. Soon the three of us would go shooting skeet and pistols over at Los Altos.

My father was a die hard liberal and when I later learned he had brought back a Beretta from Europe after WWII I though it was funny; he liked having it but never told any of us he owned a handgun. He gave it to his handyman when he sold his house and moved to Florida. I laughed and said "Now you can buy a good one legally and not hide it."

Florida was a bit weird because they would have a full on sniper rifle for sale at the small gun store for $8000; I didn't know where you could even safely shoot that thing with such a long range, a stray bullet would go forever.

I think gun sales should be restricted to people over 25 and not on psych medications or with a rap sheet.

It bothers me you can't protect yourself in several states, California technically allows concealed carry but it is at the discretion of the county sheriff and many don't give them.
37   MisdemeanorRebel   2019 Aug 7, 1:26am  

jazz_music says
WHAT NEXT? BARF CULTURE?


"Wax my Lady Balls, you Bigot!"
38   fancypanda   2019 Aug 7, 4:11am  

spam

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