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Well, they'll stone you when you're walking on the street
invite response
2019 Apr 18, 3:21am 1,605 views 21 comments
Comments 1 - 21 of 21 Search these comments
1
Ceffer
2019 Apr 18, 3:29am
Ceffer
2019 Apr 18, 3:29am
Shocked me how many fucking gomers have MJ cards in Santa Cruz. Oil vials, lollypops, candies, bud, sativa, indica, Yipes! An older friend with orthopedic pain uses it in lieu of narcotics, which he doesn't like, and he says it works well to let him sleep. His short term memory is kind of blown, though.
It's not just a youth thing, though you can smell it everywhere, particularly at the beach.
"Everybody must get stoned".
It's not just a youth thing, though you can smell it everywhere, particularly at the beach.
"Everybody must get stoned".
2
WookieMan
2019 Apr 18, 4:03am
WookieMan
2019 Apr 18, 4:03am
Ceffer says
Stoner brain is bad and probably costs money to society. A fucked up liver, heart or pancreas from prescribed narcotics? Well that likely cost 10x's more as those drugs literally destroy the body and results in a sudo health care tax on all of us. We're already a moronic society anyway, better to have them stoned versus the alternative.
An older friend with orthopedic pain uses it in lieu of narcotics, which he doesn't like, and he says it works well to let him sleep. His short term memory is kind of blown, though.
Stoner brain is bad and probably costs money to society. A fucked up liver, heart or pancreas from prescribed narcotics? Well that likely cost 10x's more as those drugs literally destroy the body and results in a sudo health care tax on all of us. We're already a moronic society anyway, better to have them stoned versus the alternative.
3
BayArea
2019 Apr 18, 5:07am
BayArea
2019 Apr 18, 5:07am
What kind of sick whack-job do you have to be to think that this plant should be criminalized??
4
WookieMan
2019 Apr 18, 5:13am
WookieMan
2019 Apr 18, 5:13am
BayArea says
Religious or an idiot? Wait, aren't those synonymous?
What kind of sick whack-job do you have to be to think that this plant should be criminalized??
Religious or an idiot? Wait, aren't those synonymous?
5
Al_Sharpton_for_President
2019 Apr 18, 5:24am
Al_Sharpton_for_President
2019 Apr 18, 5:24am
I don’t believe pure opiod damages organs directly. Of course, when you’re dead everything shuts down.
But smoking anything is bad for you, so if you must indulge, edibles might be best. But I think the jury may still be out about MJ and organ damage, cardiac comes to mind.
But smoking anything is bad for you, so if you must indulge, edibles might be best. But I think the jury may still be out about MJ and organ damage, cardiac comes to mind.
6
WookieMan
2019 Apr 18, 6:27am
WookieMan
2019 Apr 18, 6:27am
willywonka says
What do you mean by pure opioid? Even Tylenol damages the liver, albeit at low levels, like having a couple beers. Hence the warning labels. Prescribed opioids damage the body, but also get people hooked and addicted which is probably the biggest societal cost for something a doctor prescribed for a back ache.
If you have legal rights to a drug that can help a certain affliction as a business, and MJ can too (a plant that can grow basically anywhere), wouldn't you fight to keep MJ illegal? Not brainwashing, but it's simple economics and business. Big Pharma will fight until the end to protect what will essentially become worthless drug patents/rights in a ton of health issues with legal MJ. And no MJ is not some miracle drug either, not claiming that. Popping opioids when you have liver cancer is a recipe to die a whole hell of a lot faster versus even smoking some high CBD stuff to relieve pain and nausea though.
I don’t believe pure opiod damages organs directly
What do you mean by pure opioid? Even Tylenol damages the liver, albeit at low levels, like having a couple beers. Hence the warning labels. Prescribed opioids damage the body, but also get people hooked and addicted which is probably the biggest societal cost for something a doctor prescribed for a back ache.
If you have legal rights to a drug that can help a certain affliction as a business, and MJ can too (a plant that can grow basically anywhere), wouldn't you fight to keep MJ illegal? Not brainwashing, but it's simple economics and business. Big Pharma will fight until the end to protect what will essentially become worthless drug patents/rights in a ton of health issues with legal MJ. And no MJ is not some miracle drug either, not claiming that. Popping opioids when you have liver cancer is a recipe to die a whole hell of a lot faster versus even smoking some high CBD stuff to relieve pain and nausea though.
7
Al_Sharpton_for_President
2019 Apr 18, 6:34am
Al_Sharpton_for_President
2019 Apr 18, 6:34am
WookieMan says
Pure opioid is natural. Your body has built-in receptors for it. Ditto cannabanoids.
I am very pro-legalization, but with eyes open.
What do you mean by pure opioid?Tylenol is not an opioid. It’s a synthetic, man-made drug. When you add crap to opioids, you get liver damage, as with vicodin.
Pure opioid is natural. Your body has built-in receptors for it. Ditto cannabanoids.
I am very pro-legalization, but with eyes open.
8
just_passing_through
2019 Apr 18, 8:48am
just_passing_through
2019 Apr 18, 8:48am
willywonka says
You are correct. It's just an organic alkaloid easily metabolized. So long as you don't OD.
I don’t believe pure opiod damages organs directly.
You are correct. It's just an organic alkaloid easily metabolized. So long as you don't OD.
10
WookieMan
2019 Apr 18, 9:01am
WookieMan
2019 Apr 18, 9:01am
willywonka says
So who is prescribing non-man made, pure opioids? Not trying to be a dick. Talking about what is prescribed here to clear it up, not something administered in the ER or during a visit. It seems like the current way of dealing with pain and a lot of diseases is with man made drugs (opioids or not). It's a business where they have the law/protection behind them and a plant that can be grown effortlessly and can help with some (not all) symptoms is a threat.
Again, weed ain't gonna fix health care or the worlds problems. What I'm getting at is more people are being hurt by it being illegal on an exponential scale (crime, incarceration, opioid addiction, etc). A lot of industries lose big (money) if it's legal. Alcohol and tobacco Co's were deer in the headlights for a while and finally decided to get off the road before the speeding car hit them. Weed being illegal has NEVER been about the health of people. There are far greater dangers out there that are dished out by doctors getting BJ's and dinners from pharma sales reps.
It’s a synthetic, man-made drug. When you add crap to opioids, you get liver damage, as with vicodin.
So who is prescribing non-man made, pure opioids? Not trying to be a dick. Talking about what is prescribed here to clear it up, not something administered in the ER or during a visit. It seems like the current way of dealing with pain and a lot of diseases is with man made drugs (opioids or not). It's a business where they have the law/protection behind them and a plant that can be grown effortlessly and can help with some (not all) symptoms is a threat.
Again, weed ain't gonna fix health care or the worlds problems. What I'm getting at is more people are being hurt by it being illegal on an exponential scale (crime, incarceration, opioid addiction, etc). A lot of industries lose big (money) if it's legal. Alcohol and tobacco Co's were deer in the headlights for a while and finally decided to get off the road before the speeding car hit them. Weed being illegal has NEVER been about the health of people. There are far greater dangers out there that are dished out by doctors getting BJ's and dinners from pharma sales reps.
11
WookieMan
2019 Apr 18, 9:07am
WookieMan
2019 Apr 18, 9:07am
just_dregalicious says
What's the definition of toxic in this realm though? Of course Tylenol is garbage for your body, which is why I mentioned it. It will fuck you up over the long term (or short term if you OD). Which brings me to this:
just_dregalicious says
Is that not toxic? To OD on a pure opioid? Potential death? It may not harm organs, but becoming addicted to the point where you need to consume more and more to get the feeling and in many cases resulting in death to get that feeling? I'd argue it's substantially more toxic in real world terms versus scientific, organ damage terms. You OD, yo damn organs ain't working. Let me know when we get an OD on weed.
Even?
Tylenol is super toxic.
What's the definition of toxic in this realm though? Of course Tylenol is garbage for your body, which is why I mentioned it. It will fuck you up over the long term (or short term if you OD). Which brings me to this:
just_dregalicious says
You are correct. It's just an organic alkaloid easily metabolized. So long as you don't OD.
Is that not toxic? To OD on a pure opioid? Potential death? It may not harm organs, but becoming addicted to the point where you need to consume more and more to get the feeling and in many cases resulting in death to get that feeling? I'd argue it's substantially more toxic in real world terms versus scientific, organ damage terms. You OD, yo damn organs ain't working. Let me know when we get an OD on weed.
12
Al_Sharpton_for_President
2019 Apr 18, 11:07am
Al_Sharpton_for_President
2019 Apr 18, 11:07am
WookieMan says
It may not harm organs, but becoming addicted to the point where you need to consume more and more to get the feeling and in many cases resulting in death to get that feeling? INo argument there. What the market wants is an opioid drug that gets you high, but without the life threatening toxicities, and also without strong addictive properties. I am not promoting opioids over weed at all, just that weed, especially with alcohol, may have organ toxicities associated with consumption. And don’t smoke it, but eat it.
13
HeadSet
2019 Apr 18, 11:29am
HeadSet
2019 Apr 18, 11:29am
What the market wants is an opioid drug that gets you high, but without the life threatening toxicities, and also without strong addictive properties.
"Soma" from Brave New World.
"Soma" from Brave New World.
14
Al_Sharpton_for_President
2019 Apr 18, 3:17pm
Al_Sharpton_for_President
2019 Apr 18, 3:17pm
HeadSet says
"Soma" from Brave New World.So why aren't there recreational drug companies? There are recreational weed companies, after all.
15
Ceffer
2019 Apr 18, 3:21pm
Ceffer
2019 Apr 18, 3:21pm
HeadSet says
Not possible. All mind altering substances have the potential to become addictive. Most of them work not because of themselves, but because they intervene in a neural process that is desirable to the user (pleasure, stimulation etc.) Those neural processes are intended for limited use by the body in ways not intended by the intervention of the drug, and the body will create a new equilibrium around the drug due to feedback mechanisms. Also, pleasure and stimulation are not inexhaustible resources. It is like having a bank account that you squander and keep writing checks against. After a while, the checks bounce and it doesn't work any more.
The user keeps trying to get the same effect by increasing the dose, while also experiencing withdrawal. After a while, the process is just about keeping the withdrawal at bay, the drug no longer works for the original pleasure or stimulation, and many secondary or toxic effects from the higher doses begin to take effect. All of the individual's resources go into feeding this cycle, which becomes increasingly unbalanced and dangerous.
What the market wants is an opioid drug that gets you high, but without the life threatening toxicities, and also without strong addictive properties.
Not possible. All mind altering substances have the potential to become addictive. Most of them work not because of themselves, but because they intervene in a neural process that is desirable to the user (pleasure, stimulation etc.) Those neural processes are intended for limited use by the body in ways not intended by the intervention of the drug, and the body will create a new equilibrium around the drug due to feedback mechanisms. Also, pleasure and stimulation are not inexhaustible resources. It is like having a bank account that you squander and keep writing checks against. After a while, the checks bounce and it doesn't work any more.
The user keeps trying to get the same effect by increasing the dose, while also experiencing withdrawal. After a while, the process is just about keeping the withdrawal at bay, the drug no longer works for the original pleasure or stimulation, and many secondary or toxic effects from the higher doses begin to take effect. All of the individual's resources go into feeding this cycle, which becomes increasingly unbalanced and dangerous.
16
WookieMan
2019 Apr 18, 3:49pm
WookieMan
2019 Apr 18, 3:49pm
willywonka says
Former cig smoker here. I don't understand why anyone still smokes weed anyway. You have to be careful with quantity/doses of edible pot, but smoking it is frankly a pain in the ass. Given the potency of the legal stuff, smoking is a bad idea. You can at least benchmark dosage with edibles and adjust. Smoke it and good luck quantifying the amount you just inhaled. Take that next puff and you're out (hopefully on a couch).
Ceffer sums it up well though. It's why I questioned the "pure" opioid comment. Seriously wasn't intending to come across as a dick. I understand if you could do heroin responsibly (not possible), the chemical in the body itself won't damage your liver (or other organs) if you're doing say 1mg a day of it (I have ZERO idea if this is a realistic quantity of heroin and don't care to find out either). At some point you're going to have to do 10mg in a day and that will kill you (again, don't care if my volumes are accurate or not, I don't do heroin).
Fact is, as with most industries, hospitals/docs are SOLD the products they then pass on to their patients. You can Hippocratic Oath me all you want, but doctors have to make a living too. We glorify so many things as being good or they're educated or they're religious or marijuana is bad. Didn't stop a ton of church leaders from touching boy's dicks. Docs dish out shit prescriptions to people that become junkies because of their actions. That's more or less what I was getting at I guess. Weed is tame all things considered and big pharma is making their last stand. I think weed wins this one and you should invest in... just kidding.
And don’t smoke it, but eat it.
Former cig smoker here. I don't understand why anyone still smokes weed anyway. You have to be careful with quantity/doses of edible pot, but smoking it is frankly a pain in the ass. Given the potency of the legal stuff, smoking is a bad idea. You can at least benchmark dosage with edibles and adjust. Smoke it and good luck quantifying the amount you just inhaled. Take that next puff and you're out (hopefully on a couch).
Ceffer sums it up well though. It's why I questioned the "pure" opioid comment. Seriously wasn't intending to come across as a dick. I understand if you could do heroin responsibly (not possible), the chemical in the body itself won't damage your liver (or other organs) if you're doing say 1mg a day of it (I have ZERO idea if this is a realistic quantity of heroin and don't care to find out either). At some point you're going to have to do 10mg in a day and that will kill you (again, don't care if my volumes are accurate or not, I don't do heroin).
Fact is, as with most industries, hospitals/docs are SOLD the products they then pass on to their patients. You can Hippocratic Oath me all you want, but doctors have to make a living too. We glorify so many things as being good or they're educated or they're religious or marijuana is bad. Didn't stop a ton of church leaders from touching boy's dicks. Docs dish out shit prescriptions to people that become junkies because of their actions. That's more or less what I was getting at I guess. Weed is tame all things considered and big pharma is making their last stand. I think weed wins this one and you should invest in... just kidding.
18
Ceffer
2019 Apr 18, 8:26pm
Ceffer
2019 Apr 18, 8:26pm
willywonka says
It certainly has addictive liability aka dependent on the individual's susceptibility to addiction. Addicts are always just a subset of users who become increasingly dependant and lose control. However, marijuana related cannabinoids are long lasting and the withdrawal is gradual and non-intense, so it is not like the intense withdrawal of a lot of narcotics or alcohol. For that reason, it is not as challenging to withdraw from.
Also, marijuana has a huge and undefined lethal dose. Some drugs induce higher and higher usage, but the damaging or lethal doses don't change much. To get high, the dosages get greater and greater with tolerance, but the harmful threshold remains the same. With narcotics, they can reduce your sensitivity to CO2, so you may just stop breathing and choke to death on your vomit. Fentanyl is notorious for just stopping addicts from breathing and they die that way.
Marijuana use tends to be self limiting a long time before you can reach any lethal dose, you just pass out and sleep it off.
Also it is true that narcotics when clean and used with clean needles have few residual health effects, even in addicts, but the psychologic craving is intense and persistent. That means that addicts tend to be sloppy when they HAVE to get high, so they will use dirty needles and poison smack without recognizance, thus the frequent deaths from allergic reaction or overdose.
Do you think marijuana is addictive?
It certainly has addictive liability aka dependent on the individual's susceptibility to addiction. Addicts are always just a subset of users who become increasingly dependant and lose control. However, marijuana related cannabinoids are long lasting and the withdrawal is gradual and non-intense, so it is not like the intense withdrawal of a lot of narcotics or alcohol. For that reason, it is not as challenging to withdraw from.
Also, marijuana has a huge and undefined lethal dose. Some drugs induce higher and higher usage, but the damaging or lethal doses don't change much. To get high, the dosages get greater and greater with tolerance, but the harmful threshold remains the same. With narcotics, they can reduce your sensitivity to CO2, so you may just stop breathing and choke to death on your vomit. Fentanyl is notorious for just stopping addicts from breathing and they die that way.
Marijuana use tends to be self limiting a long time before you can reach any lethal dose, you just pass out and sleep it off.
Also it is true that narcotics when clean and used with clean needles have few residual health effects, even in addicts, but the psychologic craving is intense and persistent. That means that addicts tend to be sloppy when they HAVE to get high, so they will use dirty needles and poison smack without recognizance, thus the frequent deaths from allergic reaction or overdose.
19
just_passing_through
2019 Apr 18, 9:03pm
just_passing_through
2019 Apr 18, 9:03pm
WookieMan says
Natural opioids are about as toxic as caffeine which is another alkaloid. You can OD on water too.
"the great majority of individuals abusing opioids (usually young people) are getting ‘high’ taking grandma's Oxycontin®, stealing it or buying it from their friends or relatives and do not get them by prescription from an MD."
"For example, Edlund et al. (2007) prospectively studied of over 15,000 veterans who were not on opioids before the study period. They were started on opiate analgesics for pain and were maintained on the medications for at least 3 months. Only 2% developed opioid abuse. Although another study indicated an overall greater incidence of opioid abuse (ca. 6%) in individuals treated for pain (Pletcher et al., 2006), "
Pubmed article:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3073133/
I've seen stats where only about 3% of pain patients become addicted when supervised by a pain doctor. I myself have been using very very low dose (10mg 1x/day) vicodin for the past 4 years. Never abused it or even thought of that. I can't take NSAIDs except for Celebrex which is $100/month and even then I limit it so I don't ruin my heart. Nothing else does shit for the ripped disk in my back except for Lyrica which is for diabetic nerve pain. It helped but the side effects made it hard to do my job / think straight.
I've got nothing against weed. It helps a bit but nothing beats what people have used for 1000s of years (Opioids) and the stuff we crank out in the Pharmaceutical world well - I'll let others be the Guinea pigs from now on.
Incidentally NSAIDS like Advil almost killed my dad twice. The 2nd time it was his fault for being a dumbass. He nearly bled to death internally both times.
Oxy's on the other hand are dubious. The half lives were set up to cause addiction .. or so it seems. The marketing sure was shit.
On the other hand, I've used those a few times in the past and my opinion about people who get addicted to these things is this: They are weak and likely abusing them
If I were king we'd legalize all drugs, provide a 1 or 2 time free rehab for the unlucky few and otherwise let Darwin take his course. We'd save a lot of money and lives in other areas by disabling the cartels.
Preventing pain patients like myself from using them is not the right answer.
just_dregalicious saysEven?
Tylenol is super toxic.
What's the definition of toxic in this realm though? Of course Tylenol is garbage for your body, which is why I mentioned it. It will fuck you up over the long term (or short term if you OD). Which brings me to this:
just_dregalicious saysYou are correct. It's just an organic alkaloid easily metabolized. So long as you don't OD.
Is that not toxic? To OD on a pure opioid? Potential death? It may not harm organs, but becoming addicted to the point where you need to consume more and more to get the feeling and in many cases resulting in death to get that feeling? I'd argue it's substan...
Natural opioids are about as toxic as caffeine which is another alkaloid. You can OD on water too.
"the great majority of individuals abusing opioids (usually young people) are getting ‘high’ taking grandma's Oxycontin®, stealing it or buying it from their friends or relatives and do not get them by prescription from an MD."
"For example, Edlund et al. (2007) prospectively studied of over 15,000 veterans who were not on opioids before the study period. They were started on opiate analgesics for pain and were maintained on the medications for at least 3 months. Only 2% developed opioid abuse. Although another study indicated an overall greater incidence of opioid abuse (ca. 6%) in individuals treated for pain (Pletcher et al., 2006), "
Pubmed article:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3073133/
I've seen stats where only about 3% of pain patients become addicted when supervised by a pain doctor. I myself have been using very very low dose (10mg 1x/day) vicodin for the past 4 years. Never abused it or even thought of that. I can't take NSAIDs except for Celebrex which is $100/month and even then I limit it so I don't ruin my heart. Nothing else does shit for the ripped disk in my back except for Lyrica which is for diabetic nerve pain. It helped but the side effects made it hard to do my job / think straight.
I've got nothing against weed. It helps a bit but nothing beats what people have used for 1000s of years (Opioids) and the stuff we crank out in the Pharmaceutical world well - I'll let others be the Guinea pigs from now on.
Incidentally NSAIDS like Advil almost killed my dad twice. The 2nd time it was his fault for being a dumbass. He nearly bled to death internally both times.
Oxy's on the other hand are dubious. The half lives were set up to cause addiction .. or so it seems. The marketing sure was shit.
On the other hand, I've used those a few times in the past and my opinion about people who get addicted to these things is this: They are weak and likely abusing them
If I were king we'd legalize all drugs, provide a 1 or 2 time free rehab for the unlucky few and otherwise let Darwin take his course. We'd save a lot of money and lives in other areas by disabling the cartels.
Preventing pain patients like myself from using them is not the right answer.
20
FortWayneAsNancyPelosiHaircut
2019 Apr 18, 9:07pm
FortWayneAsNancyPelosiHaircut
2019 Apr 18, 9:07pm
Drugs devastated black communities back in the days, now everyone else wants to destroy theirs with drugs. I see a mistake being repeated, pisses me off.
21
WookieMan
2019 Apr 18, 10:12pm
WookieMan
2019 Apr 18, 10:12pm
just_dregalicious says
Being serious. Appreciate an educated response (for the most part ;) ) I want to respond to this, but tonight is not the night. I hope I don't forget, but feel free to bump if I don't respond in the next day or so. We're actually generally on the same page I think. Personal topic for me though and don't want to spout off on this one at midnight local for me.
Natural opioids are about as toxic as caffeine which is another alkaloid. You can OD on water too
Being serious. Appreciate an educated response (for the most part ;) ) I want to respond to this, but tonight is not the night. I hope I don't forget, but feel free to bump if I don't respond in the next day or so. We're actually generally on the same page I think. Personal topic for me though and don't want to spout off on this one at midnight local for me.
WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Sixty-six percent of Americans now support legalizing marijuana, another new high in Gallup's trend over nearly half a century. The latest figure marks the third consecutive year that support on the measure has increased and established a new record.
Legalizing the use of pot was an unpopular idea when Gallup first asked Americans about it in 1969 -- just 12% at that time said it should be made legal. Support grew in the 1970s but stagnated in the 20% range until the new millennium, when momentum for legalization picked up again. Since 2000, support for legalizing marijuana has trended steeply upward, reaching majority support for the first time in 2013 -- a year after Colorado and Washington voters legalized recreational use of marijuana via ballot initiatives, making them the first states to do so. Marijuana use continues to be illegal at the federal level.
The Oct. 1-10 Gallup poll was conducted before Canada last week became the second country in the world to legalize the recreational use of marijuana. In the U.S., voters in four states are voting this year on measures to allow for recreational or medical use of marijuana.
Support for legalization in the U.S. has continued to grow, even as Attorney General Jeff Sessions has pledged to crack down on marijuana at the federal level. But Sessions' own department has done little to actually carry out his demonstrated opposition to legal marijuana, and states have continued to legalize it since Sessions took on his role. Moreover, President Donald Trump undermined his attorney general's pledged mission over the summer when he indicated he would likely support a bill to allow states to determine their own marijuana policies.
Among Republicans, Newfound Majority Support for Legalization Remains
Sessions' opposition to legalization is further undercut by shifts in attitudes among his own political party. Gallup found last year that a slim majority of Republicans supported legal marijuana for the first time, and this year's figure, 53%, suggests continued Republican support.
Views that pot should be legalized have also reached new peaks this year among Democrats (75%) and independents (71%). Democrats reached majority-level support for legalization in 2009, and independents did so in 2010.
Majority of Older U.S. Adults Now Support Legal Pot
Among Americans aged 55 and older, views that marijuana should be legalized now surpass the majority level, with 59% support, up from 50% last year.
Meanwhile, solid majorities of younger adults have supported legalization for several years. Support is strongest among adults aged 18 to 34, at 78%, while nearly two in three adults aged 35 to 54 (65%) approve of legalizing marijuana.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/243908/two-three-americans-support-legalizing-marijuana.aspx