patrick.net

Tenpoundbass says

the median American will have 0% Native American ancestry.

Whites - 0.2% Native American ancestry.
Latinos - 18% Native American ancestry (20% of population)
Blacks - 0.8% Native American ancestry

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4289685/

WookieMan says

They're just doing what they have to (R or D) and what anyone here would have to do if they liked an easy job where you're constantly being wined and dined.

No. I would personally not lie about my race to get illicit compensation to put food on the table.

I like to be able to sleep at night and I've done very well being honest and upfront with people, not lying to get ahead. Every dollar I've earned I can spend guilt free without having to come up with stories about "imagined racism", or constantly try to change the story about my genealogy, or even releasing dubious DNA tests to prove who I am.

Completely guilt free is way better IMO. Then again, I do have morals.

Heraclitusstudent says

Bottom line, she believed her parents or grand-parents and this is such a huge deal in reps minds.

This happened to my mom. Growing up, my grandmother told us all the same story about how my great, great grandfather was born of a Choctaw woman and the immigrant settler that married her. Now, you would think only going back 5 generations, there would be more awareness of the family history, but we all took it at face value. We had "high cheek bones" in the family, lol.

Well, last year, my mom finally did one of those trendy ancestry/genetics kits. Turns out zero native American--less than average for somebody born in the US. Grandma was telling stories the whole time. I have no doubt these were stories a lot of families told each other back then, a product of quaint chauvinism, like how in the '80s we liked bikini babes on our wall posters and beer coozies, and my aunt collected Aunt Jemima stuff from pre-Civil Rights.

The difference is my mom never checked a box for free tuition or affirmative action. It was just a curio we brought up from time to time. When she announced her results at the dinner table last Thanksgiving, we all had the biggest laugh over it and welcomed mom back to the white people tribe.

dr6B says

Whites - 0.2% Native American ancestry.

I bet if one creates a category for Whites (and Blacks) that arrived prior to the 1880s, the Amerind percentage is probably higher.

Philistine says

The difference is my mom never checked a box for free tuition or affirmative action.

Ok she didn't follow exactly the spirit of that rule, but she followed the letter of it. They asked if she has some native ancestors, she said yes.
BIG DEAL!

Heraclitusstudent says

They asked if she has some native ancestors, she said yes.
BIG DEAL!

... and here is why I don't care when the left feigns moral outrage.

In fact, be honest people, if a republican had done it, he would be a hero for screwing the affirmative action system in that particular way.

Heraclitusstudent says

if a republican had done it,

... they would be a fucking liar too.

Meanwhile Trump want to get read of the AMT, which for the little we know about his taxes, is the one rule that forced him to pay some relevant taxes.
But nothing to see here.
But it's all great cynicism of the right.

Goran_K says

She changed her race from white to "native american" when it was completely untrue.

Warren never claimed that she was not white. She simply claimed that she had some Native American ancestry, and that has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt by the DNA test. Again, we literally execute people based on far more questionable DNA evidence. Having any such ancestry makes her claim valid.

And again, this would not be at all important to you if you weren't engaging in identity politics.

joshuatrio says

Elizabeth Warren is not a citizen of the Cherokee Nation.

Elizabeth Warren is not enrolled in the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians.

And Elizabeth Warren is not one of the United Keetoowah Band of Cherokee.

Nor could she become one, even if she wanted to.

All of which are irrelevant to her checking off a box on a job application decades ago. That box has nothing to do with anything you mentioned.

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says

Warren is NOT an American Indian, period.

Whether or not you consider her to be Native American is irrelevant. For the purpose of the ethnic background question, she qualifies, like it or not. Thus she clearly did not lie.

And again, why are people obsessively trying to claim that Warren lied on an irrelevant job application question when they are ok with Trump lying like crazy. I don't care if you love or hate Trump, but lying for better or worse is something he does dozens of time a day and you're ok with it. This is clearly identity politics hypocrisy.

The people posting in this thread need to realize how utterly ridiculous their attacks on Warren sound to anyone who isn't inside their narrow, extremist group. It really does sound ludicrous. It sounds even more absurd than the baseless accusations by the left that Trump is a rapist who grabs women pussies against their will.

If you can't see how absurd your accusations sound, then that's a huge red flag. You're never going to persuade anyone on any issue if you cannot be taken seriously because your very grasp on reality is questionable.

Elizabeth Warren's ancestry is an obvious wedge issue. No person who is concerned with this can be taken seriously by any sane person.

Goran_K says

... and here is why I don't care when the left feigns moral outrage.

I don't care when anyone feigns moral outrage. People acting morally superior are always full of shit. Truly moral people lead by example, not by pointing fingers.

Goran_K says

... they would be a fucking liar too.

And they would be loved by republicans for it.

doik says

that has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt by the DNA test

No, has not. Will never be.

doik says

Now the adult thing to do would be for all the patnetters who lambasted her for "lying" to apologize and admit they were wrong.

Holy brainwashed!

True or false: E Warren's mom was oppressed as a native for only being %99.83 white?

Goran_K says

... and here is why I don't care when the left feigns moral outrage.

Yeah because saying what is technically the truth is a great moral outrage comparable to, say, screwing a business partner after you shook his hand, or defrauding people attending your fake school, or running businesses in other countries while serving as US president, or trying to remove tax rules that make you pay taxes.

Heraclitusstudent says

Yeah because saying what is technically the truth

No, there was no truth in this whole saga. That's why it's such a bad reflection on the current state of the DNC.

Goran_K says

No, has not. Will never be.

Many so-called Hispanics have more Jewish DNA than Warren has Indian DNA. Total fraud!

Goran_K says

No. I would personally not lie about my race to get illicit compensation to put food on the table.

I like to be able to sleep at night and I've done very well being honest and upfront with people, not lying to get ahead.

You're not a politician..... Specifically someone in Congress. There is NO honestly in politics. You're not saying this, but there is not one honest politician starting probably from the state level upward. Most people in the real world HAVE to be honest or they'd get fucked over at some point and caught in a web of lies.

And yes, of course there are liars on the private side, for sure. The unfortunate news is that most liars sleep well at night too. That and everyone on this planet has 100% lied before in some way or another in their life. Usually it's something mundane, but everyone has lied at some point.

And again, I think Warren is an idiot. But we all know there are Republicans, Dems, Libertarians, Independents, etc that have all had to lie at one point or another to get where they are. Good luck getting to some of these positions of power with being 100% honest. Won't happen.

CBOEtrader says

True or false: E Warren's mom was oppressed as a native for only being %99.83 white?

Warren never claimed her mother was oppressed. Nor did she claim to be oppressed herself. She simply checked off a box labeled "Native American" in an ethnic background section of a form. She did not lie when checking off that box. You are deliberately reading more into this in order to create a straw man attack against Warren, something that is utterly hypocritical for someone who so strongly supports Trump who lies constantly about everything including stupid irrelevant things like how many people attended his inauguration.

And I'm not pointing this out as a "whataboutism". I'm pointing out your hypocrisy and the identity politics that is motivating your posts. Put aside identity politics and there is no reason for anyone to be upset with Warren for checking that box and no reason to call her a liar for doing so.

If you think her policies are bad, then you should be able to make a reasonable argument against those polices. The only thing that she's actually known for is trying to pass legislation to prevent banks from impoverishing masses of Americans. As a fiscal conservative, I like that. The less banks force people into poverty with fraud and other tricks, the less welfare we'll have, and the less of my hard-earned money will be taxed. I like low taxes, so I like cutting spending. Eliminating poverty cuts welfare spending. So anything that eliminates poverty including keeping greedy banks in line is a good thing.

doik says

She simply checked off a box labeled "Native American" in an ethnic background section of a form.

Which she isn't.

She should have checked off "White/Caucasian" or even: "European" if it were an option.

Please read:
joshuatrio says

Exactly.

Elizabeth Warren is not a citizen of the Cherokee Nation.

Elizabeth Warren is not enrolled in the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians.

And Elizabeth Warren is not one of the United Keetoowah Band of Cherokee.

Nor could she become one, even if she wanted to.

The Eastern Band of the Cherokee, for their part, have since 1963 required individuals to be at least 1/16 Cherokee to enroll -- and also to have "a direct lineal ancestor" on "the 1924 Baker Roll of the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians."

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/05/is-elizabeth-warren-native-american-or-what/257415/

Goran_K says

No, there was no truth in this whole saga.

You choose to believe there is no truth, just like there are still people who choose to believe that Obama is not a US citizen in spite of him releasing the long form birth certificate.
Nothing will convince cultists.

doik says

Warren never claimed her mother was oppressed. Nor did she claim to be oppressed herself.

Wrong. She told a story about her grandparents disapproving of her parents love, and made up a romantic story of overcoming racism to be together.

Is Elizabeth Warren lying when she tells this story or not?

How about when she talks about her grandfather having native facial features?

These are obviously both incorrect statements. Do you think they are lies, or is her family just crazy?

Heraclitusstudent says

You choose to believe there is no truth

Yes I believe in mathematics.

doik says

Warren never claimed her mother was oppressed

No she only claimed her parents had to elope due to racism her "native" mother was facing.

That's all.

WookieMan says

Good luck getting to some of these positions of power with being 100% honest. Won't happen.

I'm not going to argue that politicians and politicking is dirty. But that's why it seems to attract a certain type of person.

That being said, I think Trey Gowdy holds a pretty high moral standard "for a politician".

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says

So, you agree that most Black and White Americans with fractional (~1-5%) American Indian Ancestry can check the box for American Indian and sign up for all the benefits, get to the head of the line in college and job applications?

I agree that anyone with a single ancestor from an ethic group, by definition, has that ethnicity as part of their genetic makeup and therefore absolutely is honest in checking the checkbox for that ethnic group whether or not they identity culturally with that group.

I do not agree that there is any evidence whatsoever that Elizabeth Warren would not have gotten the job had she not checked that checkbox. Nor does having gotten that job have any relevance on the senator's qualifications today or whether or not you should support those policies. There is no reason other than identity politics that this matter should crawl up anyone's butt.

I also strongly disagree with the very premise of Affirmative Action. It is racist. It is anti-meritocracy. It has nothing to do with getting the best candidate for the job. It should not even be legally allowed on a form.

So, do you support Affirmative Action? Would you not want to see it banned like I do?

I have no problem with a white person reaching a position of power. She should not be condemned for not being "non-white enough". Christ, the people in this thread sound like the anti-white racists on the left. Being white is nothing to be ashamed of.

I'm proud of white culture, not because it's white, but because of all the accomplishments in it. Most white people have some non-white ancestry because all human beings fuck like crazy. So it shouldn't be surprising that Warren has some other ethnic backgrounds. Why is this at all important to the right? It's obviously because they can't make any other attacks on her, and that says everything we need to know.

I'm a fiscal conservative, but I can attack Reagan on his severe deficit spending and I can hold that ground easily against anyone who wants to debate me. I don't have to make some bullshit strawman argument like Reagan was secretly getting policy decisions from astrologers through his wife. If you have a strong position that you can defend with reason and evidence, you have no motivation to make a strawman argument.

There isn't a single president going back to Kennedy that I cannot effectively criticize for making very bad policy decisions. You don't need to use wedge issues, identity politics, and strawmans to criticize policies. This entire thread, which is typical of patrick.net, is so transparently identity politics to anyone who isn't a left or right extremist. The thing is that the people here don't even get how obvious this is to normal, middle of the road Americans who make up 80% of the population. In twenty years you'll look back at these posts and they will seem as absurd as your fashion choices in the 1980s. Your inner voice will say "what was I thinking?"

Goran_K says

doik says

Warren never claimed her mother was oppressed

No she only claimed her parents had to elope due to racism her "native" mother was facing.

That's all.

Also, both she and Harvard were praised for being so deliciously progressive https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304371504577406901777485754

"1997 Fordham Law Review article described Democratic Senate hopeful Elizabeth Warren as Harvard Law School's "first woman of color," saying in footnotes that the information was based on a 1996 telephone interview with a Harvard spokesman.

The spokesman cited, Michael Chmura, also described Ms. Warren in a 1996 Harvard "

doik says

Reality says

Sharing 1/1024th with South Americans is actually genetically less Native-American than the average White American in the US

This fact is meaningless. The average has nothing to do with the median. A few Native Americans will have 100% Native American ancestry pushing the average high while the median American will have 0% Native American ancestry. You are grasping at straws.

Please pay close attention to what I wrote. I did not write "average American" but "average White American"! I even capitalized the word "White" for you! The average White American has more Native American DNA than Elizabeth Warren does. The reason average White Americans have a small percentage of Native American DNA is due to both cross-overs and statistical noises.

The bottom line is that Warren in no way lied when she checked off a box in a job application. Having any ethnic ancestry makes it perfectly legitimate to check off such a box.

She did when she changed her race from White to Native American, and her appointment at Harvard Law School was lauded as the first female faculty member of color. Given her law degree from a 3rd rate law school, she would never have qualified as a law professor at Harvard Law School without that "color" card, which now we are finding out she doesn't actually have.

APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch says

He'd be fucking Warren if she was a porn star famous for sucking off circus animals.

And there would be nothing wrong with that. Stormy Daniels is to the Democrats what Elizabeth Warren's ancestry is the to Republicans. It's an irrelevant wedge issue.

Quite frankly, I wouldn't trust any man to be president if he wasn't banging hot chicks. Sexually frustrated men are dangerous and should not have power. Pretty much every successful head of state has been banging chicks on the side. Examples include Winston Churchill, David Petraeus, Dwight Eisenhower, George Patton, Douglas MacArthur, George Custer, William Sherman, and George Washington. These are the manly men we respect. Who was faithful to his wife? Adolf Hitler, a person we'd call a cuck today. I have no problem with Trump banging porn stars on the side. If I'm going to criticize Trump, it will be for his policies and political appointments, and there is plenty to criticize there.

Reality says

I did not write "average American" but "average White American"! I even capitalized the word "White" for you!

Jesus Christ! In order to even classify people as "white Americans" you must first have a criteria for determining which ethnic groups a person belongs to. So you can't evaluate the average of that set until the criteria is already in place, so it can't be used as the criteria itself. That's circular logic.

Why do you even care about Warren's ancestry?

doik says

Jesus Christ! In order to even classify people as "white Americans" you must first have a criteria for determining which ethnic groups a person belongs to. So you can't evaluate the average of that set until the criteria is already in place, so it can't be used as the criteria itself. That's circular logic.

Now you are talking like a Neo-Nazi racial purist. Out here in the real world, there have been inter-marriages for centuries, and there are statistical noises in DNA analysis. In the real world, the average White American (as in those who identify themselves as White, and everyone else would perceive that person as White) has about 0.2% to 2% genes that in typical DNA analysis would consider signatures of "Native-American DNA."

You know what else is worse about Warren's claim? She didn't even take a standard commercial test, but picked a friendly geneticist, who compared her DNA to Columbian/Mexican/Peruvian DNA! So she is essentially basing a "Native American" claim on 0.1% Mexican/Columbian/Peruvian DNA. Are we sure that's not the 0.1% matching the Spanish/Mediterranean ancestry instead?

Why do you even care about Warren's ancestry?

Because her political career and academic career were very much dependent on the false claim. She is the one who brought up the issue this week, and her ignorance and misunderstanding of the basic math, statistics and genetics shown in her test result are truly astounding!

It was utterly unconscionable for a Whiter-than-usual-White person to exploit people's good will towards the Cherokee people, who have more than once before told her to stop the pretending.

CBOEtrader says

Also, both she and Harvard were praised for being so deliciously progressive

So what? If a group praised Warren and you think it was unmerited, that is a complaint about the group, not about Warren. You have just made the exact same argument that the SJWs made against Trump, which is that Trump is guilty by association because white supremacists supported him. This is a stupid and disingenuous argument when made by SJWs. It is also a stupid and disingenuous argument when made by you.

The bottom line is that Warren clearly and unequivocally did not lie when she checked off that box. So all complaints against her about this issue is pure identity politics bullshit. And it's obviously so to the vast majority of the American population.

I'm tired of identity politics and wedge issues, and yes, you and the other posters are every bit as guilty of engaging in identity politics as feminists, anti-fa, and black lives matter are. You need to put this bullshit aside because it's tearing apart America and making policy discussions impossible.

I can tell from your posts that you strongly support Trump, someone who has been caught an absurd number of times in lies about ridiculous claims. You clearly have absolutely no problem with a pathological liar as long as he's on your team. Yet you demonize anyone on the other team with transparently false accusations of lying decades ago about a question that should never be on a job application to begin with and is irrelevant to anything today. And the person you are demonizing is a fiscal conservative who's economic policies are perfectly in line with Republican policies from 1854 to 1990. Hell, she was even a Republican voter before the party was taken over by extremists who have abandoned all fiscal responsibility.

Can you really not see how ridiculous all the right wing posts in this thread sounds to normal people? Can you not see how you drive anyone who isn't an extremist out of your party?

doik says

So what? If a group praised Warren and you think it was unmerited, that is a complaint about the group, not about Warren.

Warren committed fraud when checking that box and claimed her mother was discriminated against for being Native American. Given the genetic test result, it was not possible for her mother to have been discriminated against for being Native American. The photos of her mother show no sign of being Native American; her relatives, those who are willing to speak out, had no inkling about what "Native American" talk in the family she was referring to.

www.youtube.com/embed/w5F_AhciUy4

doik says

Why do you even care about Warren's ancestry?

Because SHE and her ilk have made it an issue. Sure, her ancestry should not matter in a fair and just society. But proving her obviously made-up claims of victim hood wrong is just low-hanging fruit for the overall argument that she’s full of shit when she goes on with her divisive identity politics!

Reality says

Warren committed fraud when checking that box and claimed her mother was discriminated against for being Native American. Given the genetic test result, it was not possible for her mother to have been discriminated against for being Native American. The photos of her mother show no sign of being Native American; her relatives, those who are willing to speak out, had no inkling about what "Native American" talk in the family she was referring to.

Reality says

Because her political career and academic career were very much dependent on the false claim. She is the one who brought up the issue this week, and her ignorance and misunderstanding of the basic math, statistics and genetics shown in her test result are truly astounding!

It was utterly unconscionable for a Whiter-than-usual-White person to exploit people's good will towards the Cherokee people, who have more than once before told her to stop the pretending.

One more time, if Warren was goosed by some family stories of Native American oppression then so be it. It was a mistake in the past.

On the other shoe, since Harvard Law School requires a prestigious pedigree then here's the compensation ... Liz would have to attend a post-graduate law program (LLM) at Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Columbia. Chicago, London, Oxford, or Cambridge, graduating with First Class Honours, with a publication of merit.

If she accomplishes the above, then she can stay at Harvard, otherwise, she's fired!

Lindsey Graham to take DNA test to find Native American roots: 'I think I can beat' Elizabeth Warren

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/lindsey-graham-to-take-dna-test-to-find-native-american-roots-i-think-i-can-beat-elizabeth-warren

Reality says

Warren committed fraud when checking that box and claimed her mother was discriminated against for being Native American.

This is a completely unfounded attack. You are grasping at straws. The fact that you would even try such an argument shows how out-of-touch with reality you are. You don't even realize how unpersuasive this argument is to anyone who isn't part of your extremist ideology.

Quigley says

Because SHE and her ilk have made it an issue.

No, they did not. Republicans have use this fake news as a wedge issue. It has on basis in reality and other than refuting the false allegations neither Warren nor the Democrats have at all made this an issue.

Your statement is simply false. Do you really think that you are fooling anybody with such ridiculous statements? I guarantee you that no person has said, geeze I did think that Warren was honest but you made a good point. I'll oppose her and her policies now.

No one is going to say that. No one is going to be persuaded to anything except that you and those making such arguments are so out-of-touch with reality that your opinions and so-called facts are completely untrustworthy.

No one is going to view a freaking Harvard economy professor, fiscal conservative, champaign of the middle class, and proponent of banking reform to be some conniving, evil mastermind stealing those sweet Affirmative Action dollars. It's a ludicrous image, and anyone making such a case just looks like a fool.

Reality says

Because her political career and academic career were very much dependent on the false claim.

This is another unfounded assertion and is entirely irrelevant to her abilities as a senator and the validity of the policies she advocates. Furthermore, the DNA evidence proves beyond any reasonable doubt that the claim was not false. You do not have the right to insert false statements as facts. Reality is objective and evidence is the ultimate test.

Reality says

It was utterly unconscionable for a Whiter-than-usual-White person to exploit people's good will towards the Cherokee people, who have more than once before told her to stop the pretending.

This is a transparent straw man argument and you are obviously disingenuous in making it. You don't give a rat's ass about the Cherokee people and are simply trying to demonize a political opponent no matter how weak your case is. If Warren were a member of Trump's cabinet, and nothing else about her or her history changed, then you would be attacking any Democrat who questioned her integrity or made the very argument you are making. The hypocrisy is painfully obvious.

Reality says

Now you are talking like a Neo-Nazi racial purist.

Godwin's law. You have demonstrated exactly how crazy you are and how destructive your extremist ideology is. No rational conversation can take place when you accuse your opponent of being a Nazi. It's an absurd claim that shows how divorced from reality you are. Did you pick your username ironically?

My main point in this thread is that this stupid echo chamber you (that's everybody here) have built so divorces you from the real world that you cannot even have a normal conversation with normal people about politics. If you were to say any of the shit in this thread in the supermarket to passersbys, they would look at you like you're a crazy tin-foil hat idiot. But you've been inside a crazy echo chamber for so long, you don't even realize how abnormal your speech is. It's like your Overton window has shifted into looneyville.

If you don't believe me, try actually repeating your arguments to strangers in the real world someplace where all people go like the supermarket. Notice how they look at you and how they try to end the conversation and physically move away from you. An internet echo chamber is not the real world, and its warping your sense of reality.

I mean, I literally cannot have a rational discussion with the people in this thread, and I'm as close to your politics as people in the real world will get. But it's like talking to a wall. You guys are acting like you're in a cult. Has politics become a cult? This is not good for our country. Are you all beyond hope? Are you so far gone that you cannot even entertain reality? How did you even get to this point? It's scary. It's scary in the exact same way that the purple-hair feminist man hater is scary.

Patrick, surely you can bring some sanity to these people. You see that this is all identity politics, right?

Sorry doik, but her level of native American blood is in the margin of error. This makes her a deranged liar which most normal people already knew. She is insane.

1/1024 is genetic SPECULATION, she is European.