patrick.net

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/05/22/ariana-grande-concert-attack-at-least-19-killed-50-hurt-in-terrorist-incident.html

fox news report on it, pretty good commentary by Nigel Farel (that british brexit dude)

Terrorists attacked children. Trump should ban more countries from immigrating here.

Dan8267 says

That is the epitome of hypocrisy. If you call America "a Christian nation" then you don't believe in freedom of religion but rather a few state sponsored religions. That's the exact oppose of freedom of religion. And that makes it hypocrisy.

It's about America and American values. If you come here and your religion says to kill America, than get out. It's simple and clear enough.

Why do you guys always blame Muslims? WTF is wrong with you.

Don't #PrayForManchester. Say #NoMoreManchesters

We tried these tactics repeatedly and they demonstrably don't work:

rando says

Dan, read the New Testament and then read the Koran.

So your premise is that Christianity is a good religion because the New Testament teaches good things and thus Christianity would not be a force for evil.

When exactly was the New Testament written? If it's not a new addition to Christianity within the past 200 years, then your premise is empirically false.

The medieval Christian read the exact same New Testament that you read. Yet, he drowns women and children, burns people alive, tortures people in the most horrific ways, and slaughtered non-believers in the name of the Christian god. Even before Christianity was legalized by the Roman government, Christians attacked and murdered Jews. They did this after the New Testament was written.

They skinned Hypatia to death after the New Testament was written. They waged religious wars and committed the worst atrocities in history all after the New Testament was written. They raped children they kept as slaves after the New Testament was written. The slavers quoted the New Testament as justification for slavery. They burned Jews in ovens after the New Testament was written.

If the New Testament is such a good moral guide for Christianity, how the hell do you explain all of the past two millennia of Christian atrocities, all of which occurred after the New Testament was written?

Your premise is disproved by all of Christian history. It's not the New Testament that is responsible for keeping Christianity in line today. It's secularism. Secularism today would not tolerate wars between Catholics and Protestants. Just look at the Troubles in Ireland. Secularism would not tolerate Christians killing Jews today because of the memory of the Holocaust. Secularism today won't tolerate Christian raping of slave children. And it's secularism, not the New Testament, that has changed in the past 200 years.

It does not matter how "nice" you make the stories in a holy book. All religions are corruptible precisely because they require faith and do not allow questioning the faith. No faith can live up to questioning, so reason and evidence must be made irrelevant to the flock, and that makes the flock dangerous.

And don't be fooled into thinking that because Christianity is mostly under control today -- although it still causes great harm to our society -- that it will forever remain that way. It can easily become radicalized just like Islam. Remember, Islam was for a while a more compassionate and tolerate religion in the middle ages even promoting science and questions. See Carol Sagan's original The Cosmos for details. Islam was later radicalized. Christianity was radical for 80% of it's existence. It would be ridiculous to think it's impossible for it to be radicalized again.

And again, there is absolutely no upside to irrationality, delusion, and the unquestioning belief in lies.

FortWayne says

If you come here and your religion says to kill America, than get out.

Like I said, you don't believe in freedom of religion any more than I do. The difference is that I'm honest about it.

curious2 says

Yes. Saudis own more of Twitter than Jack Dorsey does,

Could they close Trump's account? 'Cause that might make me support them a bit.

Dan8267 says

And again, there is absolutely no upside to irrationality, delusion, and the unquestioning belief in lies.

When are you gonna stop attacking Christianity for it's past deeds, when it's Islamic terror that we face today?

Some fuckers are hard of hearing: BE CAREFUL WHO YOU PISS OFF!
It doesn't matter what one thinks,all that matters is the reason the Pissed Off are Pissed Off.
It's really not difficult to understand but it does require thinking.

HEY YOU says

Some fuckers are hard of hearing: BE CAREFUL WHO YOU PISS OFF!

It doesn't matter what one thinks,all that matters is the reason the Pissed Off are Pissed Off.

It's really not difficult to understand but it does require thinking.

Are you implying we are pissing off the Muslims? If so, you living in a fairy tale.

Strategist says

When are you gonna stop attacking Christianity for it's past deeds

I'm attacking all religion for its nature. Quite frankly, it's stupid to take the position that the present state of affairs is the only thing you should look at. There is no reason to believe that the present relatively tamed Christianity will persist over the next hundred, nonetheless thousand, years. That is extremely foolish.

Furthermore, Christianity does real harm in our society today, far more than Islam does because it's ingrained in our society unlike Islam. So it's not an ignorable problem. Christianity in America can very well lead to the extinction of our species. Islam does not threaten our species extinction.

Yes, that's right. Christianity threatens our species survival more than Islam does. Islam is primitive and barbaric, and thus is not an existential threat. In contrast, Christianity causes the senator in charge of climate change policy to believe that nothing needs to be done because his god promised Noah he won't destroy the Earth in a flood again. This actually affects the policies of the most powerful nation on Earth regarding the most important issue on Earth today. Ecological collapse is an extinction event as much as nuclear war. So yes, Christianity threatens the existence of our species more than Islam does. That is plenty justification for opposing the nonsense.

Furthermore, supporting any irrational superstitious nonsense only serves to further the acceptability and propagation of other irrational superstitious nonsense. You don't fight irrational beliefs with other irrational beliefs. That's just retarded. You can only fight irrational beliefs with rationality, reasoning, and promoting an evidence-based outlook on life. Supporting Christianity is ultimately supporting the same irrational base that makes Islam popular. Thus supporting Christianity is supporting Islam.

The real war is not between Christianity and Islam. The real war is between rationality and irrationality, between science and faith, between evidence and superstition, between naturalism and mysticism. If you tolerate any superstitious nonsense, you support all superstitious nonsense even if that's not your intent.

www.youtube.com/embed/05cpUduvDGQ

Video of British Police officer reporting details.

curious2 says

Yes. Saudis own more of Twitter than Jack Dorsey does, and they use it as part of their "Muslim world plan" to stop anyone saying anything "bad" (meaning accurate) about their hateful charlatan and his horrible fraud.

Didn't know about this, but it's true:

https://www.dawn.com/news/1322728

https://richarddawkins.net/2017/03/move-to-devise-muslim-world-plan-against-blasphemous-content/

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

When are you gonna stop attacking Christianity for it's past deeds

I'm attacking all religion for its nature. Quite frankly, it's stupid to take the position that the present state of affairs is the only thing you should look at. There is no reason to believe that the present relatively tamed Christianity will persist over the next hundred, nonetheless thousand, years. That is extremely foolish.

More and more people are following secular values. Get real.

Dan8267 says

Furthermore, Christianity does real harm in our society today, far more than Islam does because it's ingrained in our society unlike Islam. So it's not an ignorable problem. Christianity in America can very well lead to the extinction of our species. Islam does not threaten our species extinction.

Islam threatens our lives, our freedoms, and our prosperity. When will you understand that.
Christianity does not threaten our species at all.

Dan8267 says

The real war is not between Christianity and Islam. The real war is between rationality and irrationality, between science and faith, between evidence and superstition, between naturalism and mysticism. If you tolerate any superstitious nonsense, you support all superstitious nonsense even if that's not your intent.

The real war today is between Islam and the rest of the world.
Lead, follow, or get out of the way.

Strategist says

Get real.

Wow, that's such a compelling argument. You win. No evidence required. No addressing of the arguments I made is necessary. You just outright win with that quip.

Strategist says

Islam threatens our lives, our freedoms, and our prosperity.

As does Christianity. Christianity threatens our lives with foolish policy making as I illustrated above. It threatens our freedom every day, making things that should be legal into crimes. It threatens prosperity for the same reason.

Strategist says

The real war today is between Islam and the rest of the world.

Are you incapability of anything beyond simply contradicting your opponent with baseless assertions?

In any case, the best way to win the war against Islam is to win the larger war against religion and irrationality. Only a fool cannot see this. Even if you got rid of Islam overnight, allowing irrationality to fester would simply result in some other religion waging war against the rest of the world. This is the most repeated lesson of history. Only fools ignore it.

Strategist says

Islam threatens our lives,

more so than the climate change deniers??

Dan8267 says

And there is no up side to faith

Actually we don't know that. That's like saying there is no upside to humanity. You can make a logical argument as to why we can have morality without religion, and you can cite examples of individuals who are moral without religion, but as a whole collective group of humanity, we always had religion. It has not been proven what happens when you have no religion.

I'm not arguing that religion is a precondition for having values that allow civilization to work. It's just that we don't know that it is not the case. Jordan Peterson makes the case better than I can.
(Note: I don't expect you would ever listen and comprehend this argument without being triggered and reacting long before you've comprehended the point in its entirety).

www.youtube.com/embed/wwi9Q9apHGI

marcus says

I'm not arguing that religion is a precondition for having values that allow civilization to work. It's just that we don't know that it is not the case.

Nonsense. We know very well that religion is not a precondition for values.

On an individual level yes, but as an entire culture ? What successful cultures do you want to cite that didn't have religion ? Modern western culture as it developed through Europe and America certainly can be said to have a religious foundation supporting our values. But it has grown and matured. Great American philosophical thinkers such as Emerson and Thoreau didn't reject religion all together, but they had a much more sophisticated approach to it. This idea of a more sophisticated "spirituality" that is not based on a sky daddy goes way back.

Confirmed suicide bombing. 99.9% chance it was Islam at this point.

Now the question is how many more people have to die before European countries collectively do something about their Muslim problem?

Dan8267 says

Religion is exactly what is motivating people to blow other people up.

Toxic tribalism can come in many forms. The most murderous group in recent history are the communists, who were united in their atheism.

Perhaps we should ban atheism.

https://www.ted.com/talks/jonathan_haidt_humanity_s_stairway_to_self_transcendence

Loyalty to a group has proven more evolutionary advantageous than logical thinking. People will always join into groups that make no sense to outsiders, especially if they have a unified enemy.

More sites are running the owys663 Tweets:

Know Your Meme

It's interesting to watch the reports via Google News. So far, it's mainly outside the NATO disinformation bubble. East Asian, Indian, and Eastern European publications have it, but the NATO bubble is waiting for official confirmation from sources that might no longer be available since Twitter is deleting accounts. The perpetrators get deleted, so they can't claim responsibility, so MSM report no official claim of responsibility. I had previously underestimated Google News, because its linked sites are heavily influenced by PR campaigns, but now I see it's valuable for precisely that reason: it shows what stories are being promoted, and what stories are being suppressed.

marcus says

What successful cultures do you want to cite that didn't have religion ?

Perhaps the Internet doesn't work where you are, or nobody has taught you how to use a search engine. You might consider China (61% atheist, 6% religious), and several other successful countries have wide majorities who are not religious. You don't know what "we always had" unless you are a lot older and better read than you appear to be.

Within American culture, religion correlates with (on average) lower IQ, less education, and less ethical, more selfish behavior. Those are aggregate statistics of course, subject to individual variation, which a math teacher can try to explain to you. It seems notable though that a guy who calls everyone "dimbulbs" and doesn't get vaccinated advocates beliefs that correlate with lower IQ, less education, and less ethical behavior.

Returning to the specific topic of the thread, people who advocate spreading Islam are advocating more such attacks in the west. The Muslim world had even more lethal suicide bombings in recent days, e.g. another 50 in Basra on Friday, but they don't even make much news anymore because they are so commonplace. When someone tells you he wants to bring Islam to the west, he is telling you either (a) he wants to kill western teenagers and young adults and (b) he wants to poison and destroy western liberalism by injecting the most illiberal and lethal religion on earth, or (c) he's delusional.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

Don't #PrayForManchester. Say #NoMoreManchesters

We tried these tactics repeatedly and they demonstrably don't work:

11. Bring back Hitler

carrieon says

TwoScoopsMcGee says

Don't #PrayForManchester. Say #NoMoreManchesters

We tried these tactics repeatedly and they demonstrably don't work:

11. Bring back Hitler

The left are #rorschachracists

In all seriousness, this would go a long way towards tamping down the violence.
Or, it could start WWIII, which would be over in a nuclear second...

APOCALYPSEFUCK_is_ADORABLE says

The whole world needs to put cartoons of Mohammed sucking goat dicks on every single web page and put bacon sandwiches on every single menu by law. What am I missing here by way of institutional insults to the cult?

Considering all the world wars started over there, the odds are they do nothing.
they seem to like and invite death and destruction...

epitaph says

Confirmed suicide bombing. 99.9% chance it was Islam at this point.

Now the question is how many more people have to die before European countries collectively do something about their Muslim problem?

curious2 says

You might consider China (61% atheist, 6% religious),

Most internet sources put the percentage of atheists in china under 50%. Perhaps those answering that particular survey thought it was by the government and that they were supposed to say atheist. Several souces I checked put the highest at 47%.

But I don't consider China a successful culture. They exist, and have huge influence in the world, but a majority of the people are miserable.

curious2 says

advocates beliefs that correlate with lower IQ, less education, and less ethical behavior.

You'e such an arrogant small minded hateful and little person. I'm not advocating for beliefs. But I am agreeing with Jordan Peterson, that the values of western culture are not independent from religion.

Each of your sources were extremely weak. Especially the surveys that asked people if religion was an important part of their daily life. Wtf ?

Please don't even go back and try to understand my comment, you're wasting your time. And the (Patnet) world gets it, you're a hateful tiny pathetic little person, maybe some self help courses or books about personal growth are in order ? Let me know if you'd like me to recommend something.

marcus says

On an individual level yes, but as an entire culture ? What successful cultures do you want to cite that didn't have religion ?

curious2 already answered your question partially, but let me add:

1. How do you define a successful culture?
2. There were and are countries where religion did not play a significant role. People there had and have values.
3. The number of atheists and agnostics is under-represented. For example, if you ask my father, he'll tell you that he is a christian. But nothing in his actions reflects reflects this. He goes to churches only as a tourists and he has not read neither the old nor the new testament.
4. If individuals can have values without a religion, why can't whole societies?
5. Considering the variety of religions, what exactly is the common among all them that attributes to the believers values?

I can see that some common set of beliefs/ideology is beneficial (perhaps essential) for uniting a society. But it does not have to be belief in supernatural powers (magic).

Dan8267 says

Like I said, you don't believe in freedom of religion any more than I do. The difference is that I'm honest about it.

I also believe in preventing terrorists from blowing Americans up.

FortWayne says

I also believe in preventing terrorists from blowing Americans up.

What does this even mean?

I believe in pissing after drinking beer.

FP says

But it does not have to be belief in supernatural powers (magic).

I agree, but two things

1) There are modern religions that aren't like that. Even with many old well established protestant religions this is supernatural stuff is mostly believed by the children only.

2) I didn't say it was a requirement, but only that the society and values that most of us want do not come independent from religion. R at least we have no proof that it does. Watch the last minute of the Jordan Peterson video I posted. Or maybe the whole thing if you can spare a few minutes.

epitaph says

Confirmed suicide bombing. 99.9% chance it was Islam at this point.

Now the question is how many more people have to die before European countries collectively do something about their Muslim problem?

I'm guessing at least tens of thousands more random innocent Westerners will die before they begin to elect leaders who will tell the truth about Islam and enact rational immigration policies.

Obligatory:

rando says

epitaph says

Confirmed suicide bombing. 99.9% chance it was Islam at this point.

Now the question is how many more people have to die before European countries collectively do something about their Muslim problem?

I'm guessing at least tens of thousands more random innocent Westerners will die before they begin to elect leaders who will tell the truth about Islam and enact rational immigration policies.

I think Americans are done and it's a part of why Trump got elected. Euros are apparently different and have minimal will to fight.

CBOEtrader says

The most murderous group in recent history are the communists, who were united in their atheism.

Like clockwork, the pro-delusion side repeats this debunked lie. Tom Selleck and Charlie Chaplin are the most dangerous despots ever.

And all these things, from the ancient to today, are intrinsic to religion. The hatred of gays, the torturing of religious opponents, the destruction of knowledge, the suppression of women are all done specifically because the religion demands it. In contrast, Stalin's and Mao's evil was solely due to imperialistic greed, not atheism, and is not supported by atheists or even acknowledged as atheist philosophy.

So the fact that Stalin was an atheist is as relevant as the fact that he had a mustache. But when the pope persuades millions of Africans not to wear condoms or Charles Worley incites men to murder gays and lesbians, religion is at the very center of those actions.

FortWayne says

Dan8267 says

Like I said, you don't believe in freedom of religion any more than I do. The difference is that I'm honest about it.

I also believe in preventing terrorists from blowing Americans up.

The belief in preventing terrorists from blowing Americans up directly contradicts the belief in freedom of religion. Their religion, their god, demands blowing up infidels.

I believe that morality is a natural instinct tied to empathy, and we evolved with this ability because groups that had this empathy for their peers survived better than groups that did not have it. Watching a 2 year old with no awareness of religion is enough to teach us that this empathy is innate.

Religions usually codify it, but people and groups vary a lot, so the version that gets codified is different. Also, religions are also means to control people, so the rules in a religion do not reflect the underlying empathy morality one for one. They more or less include a morality that resonates and controls in a way that is convenient to the authors.

So, I don't think that religion is needed in any way for morality. In fact, the way that religions are written and used, they get in the way of what morality should be. On the other hand, some of the arguments against Marcus don't make sense. How atheists behave in a society like the US doesn't prove that a society without religion would be moral. Religion was professed and understood by most of founding fathers. It has been around and permeated the beliefs of legislators and judges who have written and interpreted our laws. So, even though I'm an atheist, I didn't grow up in the absence of religion.

FP says

Strategist says

Islam threatens our lives,

more so than the climate change deniers??

I don't know, but we need to do something for both. Solar power will take care of climate change, but how do we solve the Islamic problem?

Fucking White Male says

I think Americans are done and it's a part of why Trump got elected.

Trump has been singing a different tune since he started this trip. It's anybody's guess where he'll go from here. You are right, though, that the US voted against Islamic immigration and the UK voted that way as well.