patrick.net

Dan8267 says

Your god is allegedly all-powerful and can simply will reality to his desires. It would NEVER be necessary for such a god to kill anyone, especially infants. No all-powerful being needs to murder the first born of an entire nation to set people free from slavery. He could just teleport the slaves to a new land and temporarily paralyze any soldiers or heads of state that pursued the slaves. Mass infanticide and horribly drowning soldiers ordered to pursue slaves is not necessary and certainly not moral.

A little much with the science fiction Dan? We already discussed how killing is sometimes the ethical choice. Since you don't know the circumstances or motive of action why are you making this generalization?To demonize a God you claim doesn't exist? Have you always beat your head against the keyboard?

Make a specific claim about a specific circumstance in which you accuse God of acting unethically. I will show you where you are mistaken. Every. Time.

Dan trying to prove God is a lie.

I just need to find the missing variables, then I can make an equation that explains EVERYTHING! Math is the only way to know truth!!! Why isn't this equation working????
(you left God out of the equation genius)

Psalm 14

1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the Lord.

Dan8267 says

The lie of Christianity empirically resulted in all five of these consequences. Is

1. Caused genocide, slavery, infanticide, torture, war, and many other atrocities. It also held back scientific and technological advancement that would have saved billions of lives of the past 2000 years and greatly diminished suffering. Hell, just child births deaths alone outweigh all the good that the lie was intended to create. Before science, childbirth deaths were the norm, not the exception.

2. Christianity has been used to justify all the evils listed in example one as well as many others.

3. Just look at how state officials have used Christianity to further the evilest of plots. Even noble lies are more easy to corrupt and twist than the truth.

4. From "God hate fags" to "God is on our side" to burning heretics at the stake, so much evil policy and practice has stemmed from Christianity in particular.

5. Christianity has done nothing but hold back morality as I explaine...

1. The vast majority of technological development has occurred in the west, in countries where Christianity is practiced freely and where things like "In God we Trust" is inscribed on the money supply. You can just as easily blame God for most of our modern understanding and technology.
2. Misinterpretation of scripture to promote evil is an indictment of the person who presents the misinterpretation, not of the scripture itself.

For example. You misread a map on a trip to Las Vegas and end up in Reno instead. You blame the map. That is exactly what you just did you blamed the map because the idiot reading it couldn't understand it. Dan do yourself a favor and don't blame the map/Bible.
3. see #2
4. see #2
5. http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/peace/laureates/1964/king-bio.html
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/peace/laureates/1979/teresa-bio.html
https://www.amazon.com/Christianity-Changed-World-Alvin-Schmidt/dp/0310264499

Dan8267 says

Once more, you are wrong. I'll admit to a little hyperbole here, but humiliating someone in an anonymous Internet debate is not causing harm. Nor am I acting out of apathy. Clearly I'm passionate about upholding truth and rational thought.

However, more importantly, the messenger is irrelevant. How many times do I have to say this? Martin Luther King, Jr. had extramarital affairs. That does not mean his message of equality under law regardless of race was wrong. You are attempting to do the exact same thing the FBI unethically did, which is to character assassinate a person in order to discredit his message. This is called poisoning the well, and it is not only a logical fallacy but a moral and ethical failing. You should be honest enough to debate the issue at hand rather than trying to persuade the audience with such an underhanded tactic.

Once more Danny, you are wrong. Here is the context.

Dan8267 says

I'm going to humiliate you yet again.

Dan8267 says

Immorality comes from committing harm either intentionally or out of apathy.

PeopleUnited says

It would seem that you have a problem abiding by your own set of morals. I say this not because I think your intention is evil, but to again prove the point that circumstances are important -for no doubt you have an argument that your attempt to humiliate me is for the greater good ;)

You are doing exactly what you claimed I did, you are poisoning the well. This, despite the fact that I clearly stated A) I do not suspect evil intentions and B) that the purpose of my pointing out your seeming contradiction is that I was attempting to prove that circumstances are important. You need to work on your reading comprehension.

Dan8267 says

I hate to break this to you, but one of the great motivations of monotheists is to make morality absolute and unquestionable irregardless of situation. This is why they insist there has to be a god, and more importantly, only one god. If you had multiple gods, then those gods could disagree, and that would kill morality.

God said we are created in His image. From this we can infer a lot of things. One of them is that we dwell in a realm where at times killing is moral and at other times it is immoral, at times lying is moral and at other times lying is immoral. I hate to break it to you but that is what the Bible teaches, it isn't as simple as black and white. It rarely is. Oh and by the way, the Bible does talk about disagreement in Heaven. Satan is the first liar in the Bible. His lies inspired Eve to disobey, Adam to sin and Cain to kill. Satan's lies are the origin of the evils of this world.

PeopleUnited says

Who are you talking to then?

Honey, an online argument does not a relationship make.

PeopleUnited, you have not add anything to the conversation in your latest responses. You are simply repeating yourself and all your claims have already been debunked. Trying to use the Bible to convince anyone that the Bible is unerring is just plain stupid. Once more you demonstrate that Christian brainwashing is dangerous. It stops people from thinking.

@Patrick, once more I ask you if you still hold the view that Christianity is without considerable harm just within the United States.

Dan8267 says

When Christians hold up signs that say "God hates fags!", they are doing so precisely because of their religion.

The problem is not that you are wrong, but that you paint with too broad of a brush. The Bible does not teach Christians to hold up signs that insult homosexuals. If Jesus wanted Christians to do so, he would have stood by the side of the road and done the same thing. You can claim that the teachings of Westborro Baptist Church are corrupt because of the vile things they do, I agree. But it is unfair to blame Christ for teaching them to do this. He set the example and when did he ever persecute homosexuals? Hint, he didn't. You are poisoning the well and you are doing so by appropriating the actions of a few people who don't understand the Bible to all of Christianity. It is thinly veiled dishonesty.

Dan8267 says

PeopleUnited says

Who are you talking to then?

Honey, an online argument does not a relationship make.

re·la·tion·ship/rəˈlāSH(ə)nˌSHip/
noun
the way in which two or more concepts, objects, or people are connected, or the state of being connected.

I hate to break this to you sweetheart but we are connected. You had me at (click submit). Come in for a virtual hug!

Dan8267 says

PeopleUnited, you have not add anything to the conversation in your latest responses. You are simply repeating yourself and all your claims have already been debunked. Trying to use the Bible to convince anyone that the Bible is unerring is just plain stupid. Once more you demonstrate that Christian brainwashing is dangerous. It stops people from thinking.

@Patrick, once more I ask you if you still hold the view that Christianity is without considerable harm just within the United States.

Actually Dan you have added nothing to this conversation besides repeating over and over again your opinion that the God of the Bible doesn't exist and that religion has brought ONLY evil into this world. Both of which are lies.

Dan8267 says

The Christian god was not intended to demonstrate what not to do, but actually what to do. Go forth and kill the infidels.

Is that what they taught you in your Catholic schooling? And yet you didn't go on Jihad? None of your classmates when Jihad? Doesn't pass the sniff test. Can you quote chapter and verse when Jesus said to go forth and kill?

No, I didn't think so. More poisoning of the well from the resident viper.

Here is what Jesus ACTUALLY said:

Mark 16:15-16

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

PeopleUnited says

The problem is not that you are wrong, but that you paint with too broad of a brush.

This is a cop out. I have never claimed that every Christian does that. I have never even claimed that the majority of Christians murder, rape, or torture, or do various other things that many Christians have throughout history. However, the same can be said just as truthfully about Muslims. The vast majority of Muslims are not Jihadists. And there are plenty of people who claim that Islamic terrorists do not at all reflect Islam or represent Muslims.

You personally have opened this thread and made many posts to counter that very supposition. You have countered that there is something about Islam that is directly and intrinsically responsible for terrorism committed by various Islamic groups and individuals. Your hypocrisy is denying that intrinsic cause does not at all apply to Christianity, but clearly it does as demonstrated by all of history. The intrinsic cause is faith.

Any faith is intrinsically bad and can and eventually will motivate people to do evil. Just because it doesn't motivate every person who is faithful to do evil does not mean that faith isn't a common tool of evil. You reject the supposition that Islam has nothing to do with Islamic terrorism and other atrocities committed by Islam, and then you hypocritically make the essentially identical supposition that Christianity has nothing to do with the atrocities committed by Christians. That is a complete contradiction.

I am holding you and your religion to the exact same standards you are holding Islam and Muslims to.

PeopleUnited says

Dan8267 says

The Christian god was not intended to demonstrate what not to do, but actually what to do. Go forth and kill the infidels.

Is that what they taught you in your Catholic schooling?

That is what the Bible says, and Catholic schooling as well as all other Christian religions teach that the Bible is the word of god. Hell, you have made numerous posts on this very thread that say the Bible is the word of god. So don't claim that my statements are inaccurate.

The Bible is not the word of god, but fools believe it is and act accordingly. That is dangerous. It does not matter if we are talking about the Bible or the Quran. Accepting any book as holy is dangerous. Books are not holy. Nothing is. Faith that something is holy is dangerous and causes irrational and violent behavior.

Strategist says

FortWayne says

Dan8267 says

Be a murderer and believe in Jesus and he'll forgive your sins and you'll go to heaven.

You clearly have not gone to church, because what you said is not how it works. What you said, can only be said by someone who truly has no idea, but probably heard something somewhere. You are just bad at this Dan.

No. That's what I hear all the time, too.

If you accept Jesus Christ as your savior, all your sins are forgiven, and you will go to heaven. I get asked all the time to accept Christ, before it's too late.

-----------------

@Fortwayne is right. It is not the magic words that save like in Islam where if you just say some nonsense about Allah and some prophet and you are Muslim/"saved".

It is the actual resting in faith that makes you a new creature, the testimony of faith is just the result of true belief. That is not to say that people can't make false professions, they clearly do make false professions.

It is like this, people can say "I believe that this chair will hold me. I know that this chair will hold me. Please God let this chair hold me!" But unless you actually sit in the chair you have proven you have no faith.

If you want Jesus to save you, you have put ALL your weight on Him.

1 Peter 5:7

7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.

Romans 10:10
For with the heart man believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Matthew 11:28-29

28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Dan8267 says

PeopleUnited says

The problem is not that you are wrong, but that you paint with too broad of a brush. The Bible does not teach Christians to hold up signs that insult homosexuals. If Jesus wanted Christians to do so, he would have stood by the side of the road and done the same thing. You can claim that the teachings of Westborro Baptist Church are corrupt because of the vile things they do, I agree. But it is unfair to blame Christ for teaching them to do this. He set the example and when did he ever persecute homosexuals? Hint, he didn't. You are poisoning the well and you are doing so by appropriating the actions of a few people who don't understand the Bible to all of Christianity. It is thinly veiled dishonesty..

This is a cop out. I have never claimed that every Christian does that. I have never even claimed that the majority of Christians murder, rape, or torture, or do various other things that many Christians have throughout history. However, the same can be said just as truthfully about Muslims. The vast majority of Muslims are not Jihadists. And there are plenty of people who claim that Islamic terrorists do not at all reflect Islam or represent Muslims.

You personally have opened this thread and made many posts to counter that very supposition. You have countered that there is something about Islam that is directly and intrinsically responsible for terrorism committed by various Islamic groups and individuals. Your hypocrisy is denying that intrinsic cause does not at all...

No cop out. I am just calling you on your bullshit. You are indicting Christianity for the actions of the minority who did exactly the opposite of what Jesus told them to do.

Islam on the other hand specifically teaches it followers to enact violence on non-Muslims.

The difference is striking. Like night and day.

You are arguing that the roadmap that Jesus gave us is evil simply because people don't read it and end up in the wrong place. It isn't the map that is the problem, and it certainly isn't the maker of the map. People end up in the wrong place precisely because they don't trust/use the map (Bible).

Islam however creates a map that leads directly to slavery and murder. That is where the Islamic map leads.

Dan8267 says

PeopleUnited says

Dan8267 says

The Christian god was not intended to demonstrate what not to do, but actually what to do. Go forth and kill the infidels.

Is that what they taught you in your Catholic schooling?

That is what the Bible says, and Catholic schooling as well as all other Christian religions teach that the Bible is the word of god. Hell, you have made numerous posts on this very thread that say the Bible is the word of god. So don't claim that my statements are inaccurate.

So Dan if your statements are true, where does Jesus teach his followers to go forth and kill? Was that a personal revelation from God? I just have never heard Jesus say to go forth and kill so it would appear that you made it up.

Dan8267 says

Just because it doesn't motivate every person who is faithful to do evil does not mean that faith isn't a common tool of evil.

That is the exact argument that people make to enforce drug control. Are you promoting prohibition?

Dan8267 says

Christianity has nothing to do with the atrocities committed by Christians.

What I seek to remind you is that Christ taught his followers NOT to commit atrocities. Therefore the actions of "christians" that do not follow Christ's teachings are not a result of Christ's teachings. You are attempting to indict the schoolmaster for the crimes of the students who rejected their schoolmaster's instruction. It is an irrational accusation.

PeopleUnited says

You are indicting Christianity for the actions of the minority who did exactly the opposite of what Jesus told them to do.

I am stating that Christianity, like all other religions, is based on faith which is inherently dangerous. I am also providing empirical evidence that faith specifically has motivated Christians to do great evil.

If you were at all honest, you would try to debate that premise instead of making a straw man.

You are also being completely hypocritical. After all, only a minority of Muslims have become terrorists. Yet you have no problem saying that Islamic terrorism is caused by Islam. Well, Christian atrocities also are caused by Christianity.

The hypocrisy of your position is unbearable.

PeopleUnited says

That is the exact argument that people make to enforce drug control

That's a lie.

www.youtube.com/embed/CJlqsdezhhk

Dan8267 says

PeopleUnited says

That is the exact argument that people make to enforce drug control

That's a lie.

www.youtube.com/embed/CJlqsdezhhk

Did you even bother to watch the video? You just proved my point. 2:56 Prohibitionists claim that drugs cause people to become violent. You are making the same claim about religion. By the way drug prohibition includes not just marijuana but heroin, crack, ICE, PCP. Prohibitionists want to ban drugs claiming that drugs cause violence. You have made the exact same charge against Christianity and religion as a whole. Own up to it. Oh and just like prohibitionists lie about marijuana causing violence, you lie about Jesus promoting violence.

Honey, your false equivalency does not pan out and your point isn't proven. If you are trying to argue that Christianity has not throughout the past 2000 years caused people to commit violence and atrocities then you are both wrong and a hypocrite. Let me hear you make that same dumb argument about Islam.

Dan8267 says

The hypocrisy of your position is unbearable.

It is your blindness that is unbearable. Open your eyes. Compare Jesus to that other guy. Faith in Jesus causes people to repent and trust in Him. Faith in Jesus requires that you do what He tells you to do. That is why most people don't want to be Christians, they don't want God telling them what to do. Jesus says not to kill, not to hate your neighbor. People who kill, hate, and other such things are not followers of Jesus and they have not acted out of faith in Him. The faithless people who claim to be killing, hating in Jesus name are not His disciples. But don't take my word for it.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/articles/jesus-muhammad.aspx

Comparing Islam and Christianity
Jesus and Muhammad,
Islam and Christianity:
A Side-by-Side Comparison

It is not the purpose of this site to promote any particular religion,
including Christianity. However, TROP does enjoy refuting nonsense,
such as the claim that Muhammad and Jesus preached a
morally equivalent message or that all religion is the same.

"I will cast terror into the hearts of those who
disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads
and strike off every fingertip of them."
"Allah"(Quran 8:12)

"Fight everyone in the way of Allah and
kill those who disbelieve in Allah."
Muhammad (Ibn Ishaq 992)

"Love your neighbor and pray for those who persecute you."
Jesus (Matthew 5:44)

Even though many Muslims regard terrorists who kill in the name of Allah as criminals, they cannot deny that Muhammad also killed in the name of Allah. What example of Jesus do Christians emulate which has them confused with terrorists and criminals?

Each year, thousands of Christian homes and churches are torched or bombed by Muslim mobs, and hundreds of Christians, including dozens of priests, pastors, nuns and other church workers are murdered at the hands of Islamic extremists. The so-called justification varies, from charges of apostasy or evangelism, to purported "blasphemy" or " insulting" Islam. Innocent people have even been hacked to death by devout Muslims over cartoons.

Yet, there is little if any violent retaliation from religious Christians to the discrimination, kidnapping, rape, torture, mutilation and murder that is routinely reported from nations with Muslim majorities. Neither is there any significant deadly terrorism in the name of Jesus, as there is in the stated cause of Allah each and every day. Muslim clerics in the West do not fear for their safety as do their Christian counterparts.

The "Christian world" and the Islamic world contrast sharply in other ways as well, from the disparate condition of human rights and civil liberties to economic status. An astonishing 70% of the world's refugees are Muslims - usually seeking to live in Christian-based countries.

While Western societies take seriously "scandals" such as Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (where no one has actually been killed), Muslims routinely turn a blind eye to their own horrible atrocities, even those committed explicitly in the name of Allah. The Muslim world has yet to offer a single apology for the hundreds of millions who were consumed by centuries of relentless Jihad and slavery.

These sharp differences are almost certainly rooted in the underlying religions, which begin with the disparate teachings and examples set by Jesus and Muhammad...

Visit this website for a side by side comparison of Christianity and Islam. The chart is half way down the page.

My religion is good. Everyone else's religions are bad. So convincing. Well, that settles it. Let's ignore 2000 years of recorded history because some nutjob thinks his religion is the one true one.

Dan8267 says

Honey, your false equivalency does not pan out and your point isn't proven. If you are trying to argue that Christianity has not throughout the past 2000 years caused people to commit violence and atrocities then you are both wrong and a hypocrite. Let me hear you make that same dumb argument about Islam.

My religion is good. Everyone else's religions are bad. So convincing. Well, that settles it. Let's ignore 2000 years of recorded history because some nutjob thinks his religion is the one true one.

Sweetheart calling me names doesn't change the fact that Jesus does not preach violence. He blesses the peacemakers and called on His people to love their enemies.

PeopleUnited says

List of Islamic Terror:

Last 30 Days as of 4/14/17

This is part of the list of Islamic terror attacks maintained by TheReligionofPeace.com. (note this website does not catch all attacks, nor are they immediately posted)

During this time period, there were 137 Islamic attacks in 23 countries, in which 1124 people were killed and 1081 injured.

PeopleUnited says

Sweetheart calling me names doesn't change the fact that Jesus does not preach violence. He blesses the peacemakers and called on His people to love their enemies.

Even if Jesus was real, that doesn't change the fact that Christianity has not called people to become more peaceful but in fact far more violent and dangerous. And that is all that matters, not the intent of one man who may or may not have lived, but the real actions of those who follow your religion over the past 2000 years. Even the noblest religion -- which Christianity is most certainly not -- is inherently corruptible and dangerous because faith requires a rejection of reality and reason. Even if Jesus was real and good, Christianity is bad.

@Dan
We are pretty close to agreement. For surely the noblest person, family, club, organization, church, business, tribe, city, state and nation is inherently corruptible and dangerous because humans can choose good or evil. Unfortunately Christians are not always Christ like, they sometimes choose evil. Fortunately Christians who want to practice pure Christianity and follow the strict teachings of Jesus will find that to do so requires doing good including such moral behaviors as charity, loving their neighbor as themselves and therefore forsaking of violence except in the case of self defense.

Islamic terrorism on the other hand is currently practiced as a way of life for a growing number of Muslims. It is the ideology that is leading people astray. Islamic ideology is incompatible with liberty so something has to give. Will it be Islamic ideology or will it be liberty?

PeopleUnited says

We are pretty close to agreement.

I don't think so. You refuse to even address the core issue. Faith is not a tool for good, but rather a tool for evil. Accepting beliefs without evidence and even in spite of counter-evidence is intrinsically bad because it demands that people disregard rationality and truth and blindly follow something that is wrong. This very mechanism demands corruption and perversion.

You are the perfect example of a complete disregard of the truth, reality, and rationality. There is nothing that would convince you that the Bible, a poorly written collection of propaganda written by vile men with evil social and political agendas, is factually wrong. The fact that you cannot be convinced of this regardless of what evidence is presented demonstrates the dangers of Christian brainwashing.

You and I have antithetical and incompatible worldviews. You believe that your particular culture, that you were probably born into, must be the dominate culture even if it is based on lies, and that those lies must be accepted as the truth by everyone regardless of how dangerous and counter-productive they are. You value your culture above everything else; above the truth, above peace, above honesty, above morality.

I believe that ultimately good is more stable, more productive, and more effective than evil. Therefore, it is never in the long-term interest of a society to every accept a lie, no matter how noble. Furthermore, most if not all "noble" lies turn out not to be so noble. Either way such lies ultimately favor evil in the long run. There is a price to be paid for founding moral authority on lies. This price can never be avoided.

I believe the best way to further good is truth, transparency, and scientific understanding of everything including morality. Science works. Faith doesn't. History proves this beyond any doubt. Morality should be based on truth expressed mathematically, not based on lies and fair-tales with many dubious and contradictory values.

Dan8267 says

PeopleUnited says

We are pretty close to agreement.

I don't think so. You refuse to even address the core issue. Faith is not a tool for good, but rather a tool for evil.

Your hypothesis is that faith is a tool for evil. Every hypothesis deserves testing and validation. So lets test that hypothesis.

First off we need to examine what faith is. Faith is a belief. What you believe is what you accept to be true, and what you believe forms the basis of intention. David Velleman of NYU says intentions are future-directed beliefs about what one will do—they are ‘self-fulfilling expectations that are motivated by a desire for their fulfillment and that represent themselves as such. We exercise faith on a routine basis. Does this evidence support your hypothesis?

PeopleUnited says

Your hypothesis is that faith is a tool for evil. Every hypothesis deserves testing and validation. So lets test that hypothesis.

History has already proven that time and time again. Countless experiments have been ran and the conclusions have been in for a long time.

When people fly planes into buildings, that's a faith based initiative.

Dan8267 says

PeopleUnited says

Your hypothesis is that faith is a tool for evil. Every hypothesis deserves testing and validation. So lets test that hypothesis.

First off we need to examine what faith is. Faith is a belief. What you believe is what you accept to be true, and what you believe forms the basis of intention. David Velleman of NYU says intentions are future-directed beliefs about what one will do—they are ‘self-fulfilling expectations that are motivated by a desire for their fulfillment and that represent themselves as such. We exercise faith on a routine basis. Does this evidence support your hypothesis?

When people fly planes into buildings, that's a faith based initiative.

Agreed, but you didn't address my question. You have accused me of not addressing the core issue. You claim the the core issue is that faith is evil. I am challenging that hypothesis. I am putting it to the test. Do you dispute definition of faith as a belief? Do you dispute definition of intention as a future directed belief? Do you dispute that you exercise faith on a routine basis?

PeopleUnited says

You claim the the core issue is that faith is evil. I am challenging that hypothesis. I am putting it to the test.

No, that is exactly what you are not doing. To test a hypothesis is to accept the results of the experiments. You refuse to accept the results of millions of experiments that have all shown that faith in general, and Christian faith in particular, is a tool for evil. It's not like there isn't enough evidence in the past 2000 yeas of history. At some point, you are just completely disregarding any empirical evidence that doesn't support the answer you want.

PeopleUnited says

Do you dispute definition of faith as a belief? Do you dispute definition of intention as a future directed belief? Do you dispute that you exercise faith on a routine basis?

Jesus fucking Christ! Do you really think that using academic language is going to let you throw in a red herring and avoid all the evidence that faith is evil? Fine, I'll go over your catachrestic pomp and circumstance explaining why it's bullshit.

Bullshit. I believe that Maine is in the United States of America. That isn't faith. It's knowledge. Faith is the believe without evidence and even in spite of counter-evidence. There is no evidence that Jesus rose from the dead, yet you believe it. That is faith. There is ample evidence that man-made climate change is occurring. That is knowledge. The two are completely different things. From this misunderstanding alone we can discard everything else you just said, but let's continue.

PeopleUnited says

First off we need to examine what faith is. Faith is a belief.

PeopleUnited says

David Velleman of NYU says intentions are future-directed beliefs about what one will do

Who gives a shit what David Velleman says? Appeal to authority means nothing, and name dropping will not score you any points. If you cannot explain the statement and how it relates to this discussion, then no one should take it seriously.

PeopleUnited says

they are ‘self-fulfilling expectations that are motivated by a desire for their fulfillment and that represent themselves as such

Intentions are clearly not self-fulfilling. Anyone who has lived on this planet more than five years can tell you that.

PeopleUnited says

We exercise faith on a routine basis.

You might, but rational people do not. Nor would this supposition support that faith is not a tool for evil.

PeopleUnited says

Does this evidence support your hypothesis?

I don't think you know what evidence actually is. Core samples are evidence of historic temperatures. The crusades are evidence of wars created by Christianity. What you was spout off a bunch of nonsensical sentences with no reference to actual evidence of anything. Seriously, did you think your words were convincing?

I didn't respond to your nonsense initially because the only response to nonsense is to call it nonsense. You can't patch and fix it up.

Dan8267 says

PeopleUnited says

You claim the the core issue is that faith is evil. I am challenging that hypothesis. I am putting it to the test.

No, that is exactly what you are not doing. To test a hypothesis is to accept the results of the experiments. You refuse to accept the results of millions of experiments that have all shown that faith in general, and Christian faith in particular, is a tool for evil. It's not like there isn't enough evidence in the past 2000 yeas of history. At some point, you are just completely disregarding any empirical evidence that doesn't support the answer you want.

@Dan8267
First of all, faith is not a tool, which is a point that has not been made yet. Faith is an action based on a belief. We all have beliefs. You probably don't realize how much of your life is based on faith. I know you don't have faith in God but you have faith in what you can do, in what other men and women can do. You seem to believe that if people just put their minds to it the human race can solve all problems. You even provide some so called solutions such as banning people who believe in a higher power from voting.

What you really mean to say is that deception is a tool for evil. And you wish to argue that all religion is deception. Fine you are free to make that argument. However what you fail to recognize is that deception is so widespread, so pervasive, that even you are deceived and do not realize it. Do you think you are not deceived into believing lies? Do you think that everything you hold to be true is really true?

So I would argue that just because religion is very often a form of deception, that doesn't mean that you are not deceived into false beliefs regarding the God of the Bible.

Strategist says

FortWayne says

Dan8267 says

Be a murderer and believe in Jesus and he'll forgive your sins and you'll go to heaven.

You clearly have not gone to church, because what you said is not how it works. What you said, can only be said by someone who truly has no idea, but probably heard something somewhere. You are just bad at this Dan.

No. That's what I hear all the time, too.

If you accept Jesus Christ as your savior, all your sins are forgiven, and you will go to heaven. I get asked all the time to accept Christ, before it's too late.

I know some say that, but they are wrong. Some people in the church even get that one wrong. Per bible, forgiveness is not guaranteed for that would impose on god and faith.

FortWayne says

Strategist says

FortWayne says

Dan8267 says

Be a murderer and believe in Jesus and he'll forgive your sins and you'll go to heaven.

You clearly have not gone to church, because what you said is not how it works. What you said, can only be said by someone who truly has no idea, but probably heard something somewhere. You are just bad at this Dan.

No. That's what I hear all the time, too.


If you accept Jesus Christ as your savior, all your sins are forgiven, and you will go to heaven. I get asked all the time to accept Christ, before it's too late.

I know some say that, but they are wrong. Some people in the church even get that one wrong. Per bible, forgiveness is not guarante...

What is guaranteed Fort Wayne is that when God makes a promise, He always delivers. He is incapable of failure. Men and women can make false promises, false professions of faith, but God is faithful and just to forgive those that truly believe. And true believers don't go around taking their sins as a joke. True believers are ashamed of their sins.

@Dan8267 said: Intentions are clearly not self-fulfilling. Anyone who has lived on this planet more than five years can tell you that.

Perhaps not every intention is realized, however no reasoned action of a human being ever occurs without intent. The car you drive, the porn on your computer and the shark eating the Jesus fish emblem on the back of your car were all realized intentions any thought that becomes a real creation was created by the faith of the creator in her/his ability to create it.

@PeopleUnited what do you think of non-believers like me, who nonetheless sympathize with Christianity out of agreement with Jesus' basic teachings?

You could say I'm going to hell because I don't believe. Or you could just accept a friend who has some points of agreement with you.

@Patrick

Non-believers happen to comprise most of my friends. So I think that you are a normal human being and I am glad to have you as a friend. I enjoy the sharing of ideas with you and even civil discussion of points of disagreement.

Some people don't enjoy civil discourse but I applaud you for your attempts to give users of this site the liberty to speak freely and encouragement to speak with civility (which is clearly harder to achieve).

Which of Jesus teachings are especially satisfying to you? I'm curious why you don't believe? Do you mind my asking?

My personal faith is not my favorite topic for an Internet forum but Dan really tried to derail this thread about Islam and the roots of Islamic terror, so that was how I decided to share my faith as a way of distinguishing Christian "religion" from Islamic terrorists. I suspect you and I have much in common Patrick. The false characterization of me and my beliefs not only on this thread but really since I first posted on this site is astounding.

Since this forum is not the ideal format for sharing my faith, I'd rather discuss how we as Americans and citizens of the world are going to act to protect innocent people from the Islamic threat. That being said, I am curious why you are an unbeliever who likes Jesus's teachings? If you believed what would change?

I particularly like these bits:

38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

— Matthew 5:38–5:42 KJV

27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.
30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.

— Luke 6:27–31 KJV

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turning_the_other_cheek

Not only does it feel like the right way to behave, it has some good theoretical backing in game theory. If we all cooperate instead of "defecting", the whole world is much better off. The Buddhists say very similar things: “For hate is not conquered by hate: hate is conquered by love. This is a law eternal.”

There is enormous power in understanding that conflicts can be solved through identifying with the other person.

I don't believe that Jesus was God, or rose from the dead, or even that there is necessarily anything supernatural at all. It just never clicked with me the way it does with some people. That part just seems literally unbelievable to me. If I believed, I supposed I'd go to church. Not sure what else would change.

rando says

I particularly like these bits:

38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.

41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

— Matthew 5:38–5:42 KJV

27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.

29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.

30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.

31 A...

You will notice..... violent Muslims who convert to Christianity become peaceful. Peaceful Christians who convert to Islam, become violent.