patrick.net

Goran_K says

So they might have a point.

That Socialist rag Fortune disagrees.

www.fortune.com/2016/12/05/trump-obama/

finehoe says

That Socialist rag Fortune disagrees.

www.fortune.com/2016/12/05/trump-obama/

I honestly don't care what some MSM journalist says. I lived through Obama's two terms and saw with my own eyes, I don't need some liberal arts major turned writer to tell me what to think.

Can you list the crowning achievements of Obama's two terms and what their CURRENT benefits ACTUALLY are (not intended) for our country?

Obama's crowning achievement is the legalization of indefinite detention of Americans without trial:

http://www.salon.com/2013/12/27/obama_signs_ndaa_2014_indefinite_detention_remains/

If you're looking for steps toward fascism, this one is a whopper. Amazing that the MSM doesn't talk much about it.

AllTruth says

And for the record, I detest Hillary Clinton.

Trump is going to turn out to be a disaster for all but the top 1/2 of 1% of Americans and may even collapse the nation. He's an absolute disaster in waiting.

How do you feel about China building Boeing and Airbus planes?

Goran_K says

I honestly don't care what some MSM journalist says.

So no matter what I post, you'll pooh-pooh it.

Sometimes I forget facts don't matter to cons.

rando says

Obama's crowning achievement is the legalization of indefinite detention of Americans without trial:

http://www.salon.com/2013/12/27/obama_signs_ndaa_2014_indefinite_detention_remains/

If you're looking for steps toward fascism, this one is a whopper. Amazing that the MSM doesn't talk much about it.

But since the American people voted to return the same members of Congress to office that originally passed the bill Obama signed, we have to assume they don't care.

finehoe says

But since the American people voted to return the same members of Congress to office that originally passed the bill Obama signed, we have to assume they don't care.

Maybe if the MSM had given even one tenth as much attention to such an overtly authoritarian law as they gave to The Donald's bragging about what women let him do, the people would care a bit more.

rando says

Maybe if the MSM had given even one tenth as much attention to such an overtly authoritarian law as they gave to The Donald's bragging about what women let him do, the people would care a bit more.

LOL. When has the MSM ever covered substantive issues?

finehoe says

Sometimes I forget facts don't matter to cons.

This statement belies an integral underpinning of Leftist thought. You see, it's not anti-establishment, but rather rabidly establishment thought that makes up Leftism. Leftists are those who surrender their cognitive capacity for doubt when they declare mainstream news to be absolutely factual and an authority about everything. Then it doesn't matter what the newscasters spew, the Leftists will eat it up like a dog laps up its vomit. Even traditionally conservative views will be automatically adopted by Leftists because the TELEVISION told me so!
In conclusion, Leftists today only hold the views the MSM tells them to hold. Today they might be for racial equality and gay rights, but sixty years ago the very same sort of people believed blacks were an inferior species and gays were an abomination. Why? Because that's what they said on the news!
In fact, the authority-believers are worse today because they have access to all the information in the world at their fingertips and yet choose to believe whatever skewed, flawed, or false information the talking heads on CNN blather out.

And your statement belies the integral underpinning of Wingnut thought, that ANYTHING published somewhere other than a few far-right propaganda outlets is not to be believed, no matter how many statistics or collaborations it may contain. That is why cons fall for ridiculous bullshit like pizza parlor pedo rings or plutocrats who claim to be 'for the working guy'.

finehoe says

So no matter what I post, you'll pooh-pooh it.

Sometimes I forget facts don't matter to cons.

No, I said I don't trust most MSM and don't want an MSM opinion. That's what I actually said, not the dishonest summary you tried to pass off.

I want YOU, as in YOU yourself, to tell me and explain what Obama's achievements were and what their actual effects were on our society (not his intentions because like we all know, the path to hell is paved with good intentions). Unless you're making the point that you cannot separate your opinion from MSM, which in that case, don't bother.

tr6 says

Goran_K says

Relax guys, you're making yourselves look silly.

ah, have you seen his EPA appointee?

Yeah, and I like the appointment. I suppose you'd have liked Al Gore.

Goran_K says

the point that you cannot separate your opinion from MSM

The point I was making was the same as yours. Regardless of what you think of either Trump or Obama, the idea that someone who hasn't even taken office yet has done more than a sitting president (whether you agreed with it or not) is foolishness.

finehoe says

The point I was making was the same as yours. Regardless of what you think of either Trump or Obama, the idea that someone who hasn't even taken office yet has done more than a sitting president (whether you agreed with it or not) is foolishness.

Okay, so explain why that opinion is wrong. Are you going to list Obama's achievements and their actual effects on the U.S or not?

Simply saying "the opinion that Trump did more than Obama is foolish", okay, I get your opinion. Now explain what Obama actually accomplished and juxtapose that to what Trump has accomplished as President Elect.

I'm of the opinion Obama accomplished very little, and that there are far more negative effects from his presidency that will linger far after he's gone on January 20th. ACA has imploded, racial division in the country is sky high, and the economic growth of the past few years is anemic, and we have a record number of people out of the workforce.

See? That's an opinion backed up by reasons why I have that opinion. Now you try it.

finehoe posted an article with many economic statistics mostly from government agencies laid out graphically. These data might be considered facts or somehow manipulated and misleading. Most would consider these facts. The data show an improving economy (fact) and strong real increase in the median income over 4 years (fact) strongest job gains (in last year of presidency) since 1988 (fact).

Not one person has discussed the merits of these figures, but plenty have dismissed the article out of hand, because it is part of the MSM. Then there are posts by cons saying that lefties only believe what they are told. It's fucking comical, but doesn't make for much of a discussion.

YesYNot says

finehoe posted an article with many economic statistics mostly from government agencies laid out graphically. These data might be considered facts or somehow manipulated and misleading. Most would consider these facts. The data show an improving economy (fact) and strong real increase in the median income over 4 years (fact) strongest job gains (in last year of presidency) since 1988 (fact).

That's a ridiculous opinion because MSM articles often come tainted with personal and political bias (have you not been paying attention to MSM for the past 18 months?).

Why is the burden of examination and verification of MSM opinions on the viewer and not the presenter?

Take for instance an accusation of murder. I can just drop some random unverified source that you murdered someone. According to your logic, YOU now have to verify and find facts to prove your innocence, and I have ZERO responsibility to lay out my case.

Why isn't finehoe expected to explain and detail those statistics and why they are valid?

That's why your logic is so backwards, I can just post some Alex Jones article and now you have to take 30-60 minutes explaining why the statistics and personal opinion are valid or not, and once you're done with that, I'll just continue posting more articles from tainted sources while you spend more and more time debunking or proving them right. That's backwards and lazy, like most leftist policies.

Goran_K says

That's an opinion backed up by reasons why I have that opinion

But you haven't backed up any of those "reasons" with actual, you know, facts.

See? So why don't you actually cite a source that collaborates those "reasons" and maybe your pseudo-intellectual shtick might go over better.

Goran_K says

That's a ridiculous opinion because MSM articles often come tainted with personal and political bias (have you not been paying attention to MSM for the past 18 months?).

Everything that comes out of a human's mouth or off the tip of their pen is potentially tainted with bias. However, when someone puts forward facts from a trusted 3rd party as the author of the cited article did, they are backing up their argument. You dismissed these facts out of hand, because you didn't like the messenger, and you made no assertions or complaints about the 3rd party.

Goran_K says

Take for instance an accusation of murder. I can just drop some random unverified source that you murdered someone. According to your logic, YOU now have to verify and find facts to prove your innocence, and I have ZERO responsibility to lay out my case.

If you show proof that I've been convicted in a court of law (trusted 3rd party), then your assertion holds merit. Then the burden is on someone else to prove you wrong.

DIE! Democratic & Republican Voters DIE! AT BIRTH!

finehoe says

pseudo-intellectual shtick

That's my patrick.net!

Ok I'm out

tr6 says

ah, have you seen his EPA appointee?

Yeah, good pick, IMO.

I'm concerned about some of the people he is picking. But I'm most certain I would be horrified by the Socially Promoted grossly inept people that Hillary or another Establishment tool would have put in those positions. I don't think none of his picks will be as horrible as any of Obama's feckless picks.

The biggest one that bothers me, is him putting a Burger Boy in the head of the Labor Department. Maybe he knows something we don't. This hasn't been done before so I'm interested in seeing how it plays out.

Just remember he didn't break Washington or destroy this country.
Though he did get elected to fix it, and I'm not going to let him off the hook or ever let up by saying he inherited this mess.

He's our last hope as far as I can tell. If Trump can't fix it, or has no will to in the first place. Then we may as well become a dictatorship. Why elect people if we are controlled by the same assholes regardless.
Most people will just go underground, and go out of their way to not support our government through taxes.
It will be my personal mission to never pay a dime in Federal income taxes.

AllTruth says

Naomi Prins article I posted below....

You didn't post any article in this whole thread, but I think you were referring to Nomi Prins (note spelling) and her December 8 article, "Trump’s Bait and Switch: How to Swamp Washington and Double-cross Your Supporters Big Time". Amazing that nobody in 39 comments mentioned that the article referenced in the OP wasn't even there: the rush to brawl, usually along established partisan lines, seems to skip over even the most obvious evidence (or absence of evidence).

curious2 says

You didn't post any article in this whole thread,

I can see how that's confusing. On the original date that this thread was created, the poster had already created a separate thread that did include the Nomi Prins article. So, "posted below" referred to an actual thread posted below this thread (at that time, anyway; on Dec 8).

That thread was titled, "Trump's Bait&Switch: Fill Swamp & Double-Cross Supporters".

anonymous says

While Trump had said he would speak to the matter on Thursday, aides said he will now wait until January to outline how he would pass control of his company to others.

Some electors should threaten to defect unless he addresses this issue.

rando says

Obama's crowning achievement is the legalization of indefinite detention of Americans without trial:

Cheney started that. Obama tried to unwind it. But I am sure he was told not to.

Philistine says

On the original date that this thread was created, the poster had already created a separate thread that did include the Nomi Prins article. So, "posted below" referred to an actual thread posted below this thread (at that time, anyway; on Dec 8).

Thanks, I think this is the PatNet thread that you were referring to. Although dated December 8, that Post says the article was "Posted on December 9," and the link in that OP doesn't even work. At least that Post spells correctly the author's name, which this Post misspells.

Excerpted and updated from her recent book, the article presents interesting parallels to the administration of Warren G. Harding, who took office in 1921. Oddly, it omits mentioning that Harding died in 1923. Harding's VP Coolidge finished Harding's first term, and won a second term on his own, followed by Harding's Secretary of Commerce, Herbert Hoover. Also, despite mentioning the 1929 crash, the updated excerpt omits the fact that the 1920s as a decade, including 1929 as a whole year, saw strongly positive stock market returns. Most people believe mistakenly that 1929 was a bad year for stocks; in reality, it was a bad year to buy them, but a good year to hold them; the serious losses occurred during the period 1930-33.

Ironman says

Nice try, but they can't do that.

Why not? One already said he was going to defect. 40 others could state that they will vote for Her, because of Trump's huge and blatant conflict of interest and his refusal to address it. Trump can read between the lines about what would happen if he did address it. I'm not predicting that they will do this. Just stating that they can and should.

As long as he doesn't use his office and influence to directly benefit his business interests, there's no issue. The left wing media is blowing this way out of proportion because they're so butt-hurt. Of course the liberals eat this shit up because it's all they have....well that, and Rachel Maddow.

"Unfolding Disaster" began with the first D & R voters.

Obama Failures:

First President to apply for college aid as a foreign student, then deny he was a foreigner.

First President to have a social security number from a state he has never lived in.

First President to preside over a cut to the credit rating of the United States .

First President to violate the War Powers Act.

First President to require all Americans to purchase a product from a third party.

First President to spend a trillion dollars on shovel-ready jobs and later admit there was no such thing as shovel-ready jobs.

First President to abrogate bankruptcy law to turn over control of companies to his union supporters.

First President to by-pass Congress and implement the Dream Act through executive fiat.

First President to order a secret amnesty program that stopped the deportation of illegal immigrants across the U.S. , including those with cr imi nal convictions.

First President to demand a company hand-over $20 billion to one of his political appointees.

First President to terminate Americas ability to put a man in space.

First President to encourage racial discrimination and intimidation at polling places.

First President to have a law signed by an auto-pen without being present.

First President to arbitrarily declare an existing law unconstitutional and refuse to enforce it.

First President to threaten insurance companies if they publicly speak-out on the reasons for their rate increases.

First President to tell a major manufacturing company in which state they are allowed to locate a factory.

First President to file lawsuits against the states he swore an oath to protect (Az, WI, OH, IN)

First President to withdraw an existing coal permit that had been properly issued years ago.

First President to fire an inspector general of Ameri-corps for catching one of his friends in a corruption case.

First President to appoint 45 Czars to replace elected officials in his office.

More Obama failures:

First President to golf 73 separate times in his first two and a half years in office.

First President to hide his medical, educational and travel records.

First President to win a Nobel Peace Prize for doing NOTHING to earn it.

First President to coddle American enemies while alienating Americas allies.

First President to publicly bow to Americas enemies while refusing to salute the U.S. Flag.

First President to go on multiple global apology tours.

First President to go on 17 lavish vacations, including date nights and Wednesday evening White House parties for his friends, paid for
by the taxpayer.

First President to refuse to wear the U.S. Flag lapel pin.

First President to have 22 personal servants (taxpayer funded) for his wife.

First President to keep a dog trainer on retainer for $102,000.00 a year at taxpayer expense.

First President to repeat “the Holy Qur’an tells us,” and openly admit “the early morning call of the Azan (Islamic call to worship) is the most beautiful sound on earth.”

Arming ISIS in Syria and Iraq.

Nation debt ballooning.

IRS targets Obama’s enemies

Benghazi

The General Services Administration Las Vegas Spending Spree.

Veterans Affairs in Disney World and neglecting vets

Solyndra

New Black Panthers Voter Intimidation

Obamacare savings

Failing to Recognize ISIS as a Radical (or Devout) Muslim Movement.

Lack of Confidence by NATO nations

Signing a Disastrous Nuclear Deal with Iran

Paying Iran ranson.

Lying about paying ransom (which media ignored!)

Allowed the building of Chinese bases in the South China Sea.

Failure to secure the Border

Racial Division at all-time high.

Disrespect for Cops

Constant disregard for the Constitution and tyrannical rule

Price of healthcare has drastically risen for those purchasing it

Highest percentage of Americans on Food Stamps and Medicaid.

More Obama failures:

Record 92,898,000 Americans over 16 years not working,

Lowest Labor Force participation rate of 62.7%

Disastrous Vetting Process of “Immigrants” from Muslim Nations.

Refusing to Listen to CIA/FBI that there is no way to properly vet certain immigrants from Muslim nations.

I'm quite sure the defintion of America that I'm used to would make handout recipient lowlife welfare case, otherwise perfectly healthy human beings would hate the America I'm thinking of.

So Trump is on the right track. Forward!!!!!!

AllTruth says

I'm independent, but see Naomi Prins article I posted below as to why the United States is now FUCKED.

I agree with everything that she wrote.

And for the record, I detest Hillary Clinton.

Trump is going to turn out to be a disaster for all but the top 1/2 of 1% of Americans and may even collapse the nation. He's an absolute disaster in waiting.

#DisasterAboitToUnfold

You fucking peasant....

hahahahaha.... This is what I want Trump to do.

Robber Baron Elite Scum says

hahahahaha.... This is what I want Trump to do.

He's going to do that to Career Politicians and Liberals.

One of Obummer's many but biggest failures was certainly the disastrous middle-eastern policy, which granted had been kicked off by Bush Jr (Bush senior actually was smart enough not to de-stabilize the middle-east unnecessarily) with the ousting of Saddam and the chaos that ensued. The Obummer administration is directly responsible for the refugee crisis by arming terrorists instead of helping leaders of fragile middle-eastern countries to stabilize the region.

jazz music says

OBAMA'S ACCOMPLISHMENTS CONTINUED PART 5

@Patrick, how's that comment limit working out?

jazz music says

Stock market has reached record highs, restoring most of the economic losses felt during the Bush Recession. http://bit.ly/1z4FAtL

This is only because Trump has been elected.jazz music says

Through his investment in GM, returned to the company to its place as the premiere car company in the world. http://lat.ms/zIJuQx

In February 2016, GM was in such good financial shape, they gave a share of the profit to each worker, with checks up to $11,000. http://detne.ws/1mk7Jry

It was Obama's bailout of the UAW and nothing more. A REAL bankruptcy would have voided the union contracts and let GM pay market wages so they could compete. And why aren't you mentioning how crappy Chrysler since they got bailed out?

jazz music says

By the end of his first year, the economy created and sustained 2.1 million jobs and the ARRA stimulated the economy by 3.5%. http://reut.rs/i46CEE