patrick.net

YesYNot says

You seem to be confusing us liberals with people from the Bush administration.

But you did the same shit in Libya, just with Aerial Bombardment and a few Green Beret/Mercenary Advisers and Forward Air Controllers.

indigenous says

No there not, you insist on a cartoonish perspective on this. The number of dead are a tiny fraction of the dead produced by the US. This country kills people 24/7 decade after decade. The pathology is ubiquitous here, yet you choose to ignore it.

I don't think anyone cares to argue this. ISIS wants us dead, why should I care to compare anything to ISIS?

Sure we killed Nazi's in the 2nd? Those assholes wanted to kill us, we had a right to self defense!

Here are some prominent refugees: http://www.unhcr-centraleurope.org/en/about-us/unhcr-people/prominent-refugees.html?start=0

Here's what we thought about letting in Jews from Germany prior to entering WWII: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/11/17/what-americans-thought-of-jewish-refugees-on-the-eve-of-world-war-ii/

YesYNot says

curious2 says

They have another beautiful dream that they did the Iraqis a favor by "liberating" Iraq, and that they're doing the Syrians a favor by bombing Syria and driving Syrians to become refugees

You seem to be confusing us liberals with people from the Bush administration.

Of all the Orwellian things you could call yourself, "liberal" is the most surprising. There is nothing "liberal" about waging endless war all over the world on behalf of Gulf oil and gas interests, driving refugees to serve as cheap labor for German and American corporations. If you can find a way to call the U.S. bombing of Syria and Libya, and the U.S.-backed war in Yemen, "liberal", then you are speaking a different language with different definitions. Or perhaps you are merely under the misimpression that the Bush administration included Vice President Biden and Secretaries of State Clinton and Kerry (all of whom voted to authorize the Iraq war). Or perhaps you didn't realize that W left office in 2009 but the American bombing of Libya occurred in 2011, the American bombing of Syria began in 2014, and the U.S.-backed bombing of Yemen began this year. Oh wait - I forgot - you simply lie - I should not have bothered to respond.

thunderlips11 says

But you did the same shit in Libya, just with Aerial Bombardment and a few Green Beret/Mercenary Advisers and Forward Air Controllers.

Both parties have been supporting rebels in various coup attempts. It hardly ever seems to work out well. My point was not to bash republicans so much as point out the stupidity of saying that liberals imagine that we will be received as liberators. It's hardly a liberal talking point.

curious2 says

under the misimpression that the Bush administration included Secretary of States Clinton and Kerry (both of whom voted to authorize the Iraq war)

Here are a few quotes from the Bush administration.

VICE PRES. DICK CHENEY: My belief is we will, in fact, be greeted as liberators.

CHENEY: The Middle East expert, Professor Fouad Ajami, predicts that after liberation, the streets in Basra and Baghdad are sure to erupt in joy...
RUSSERT: Do you think the American people are prepared for a long, costly and bloody battle with significant American casualties?

VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: I don’t think it’s likely to unfold that way, Tim, because I really do believe we will be greeted as liberators.

WOLFOWITZ: These are Arabs, 23 million of the most educated people in the Arab world, who are going to welcome us as liberators.

FortWayne says

I don't think anyone cares to argue this

Sactly the problem...

YesYNot says

Both parties have been supporting rebels in various coup attempts. It hardly ever seems to work out well. My point was not to bash republicans so much as point out the stupidity of saying that liberals imagine that we will be received as liberators. It's hardly a liberal talking point.

Very well.

I do know the WORST thing we can do is "Put Boots on the Ground", which is exactly what Khalifa/Caliphate/ISIS supporters want more than anything.

Not that there is the least appetite among any but the most unreconstructed neocon for such a move.

thunderlips11 says

Not that there is the least appetite among any but the most unreconstructed neocon for such a move.

"Jeb Bush Joins Republican Calls for Ground Troops in Syria
***
Bush joins a number of his Republican presidential rivals, including Ben Carson, John Kasich, and Lindsey Graham, in calling for a U.S. presence on the ground, something polls indicate that a majority of Americans oppose, even after the terror attacks in Paris last week that killed at least 129."

Polls in 2013 showed Americans opposed bombing Syria, too, but polls don't matter when the neocons&neo-"liberals" get a cause in their heads.

Looks like SBH/FUCKEDBYGOATS is up to date with his prostate exam...

sure, most of them are probably fine people, but islam is simply the opposite of western values. note that they walked for weeks directly towards the greatest money and not simply to safety

Yes, they run to whether they can get back easier their middle life back. US or Germany. I wonder if even if they were wanted, they'd settle at a place like Albania.
A win-win situation would be to select Syrians based on their skills. Cheap qualified skill force.

Some Christian interpretations are worse than some Islam interpretations. It doesn't matter that original Islams beliefs are better. Nor that earlier Muslim societies were much better than early Christian societies.

Also to consider. There are already many Muslims here. Some of them scary. Bringing in mu muslim-liberal-refugees profile can only make better the cross-cultural-relationship.

What attributes of muslim culture are you most worried about? Jihad? What aren't you worried about Jews? Eye for an eye philosophy? Wealth accumulation focus, what brings on deflation?

This is perfect. A litmus test to separate the good from the evil...

anonymous says

Where are the fatwas from the Imams in the U.S. condemning the religious violence of Islam ?

ja says

What attributes of muslim culture are you most worried about? Jihad?

the fact that they are ordered to make war on unbelievers, and that they do it with great regularity, all around the world, generally against unarmed civilians.

What aren't you worried about Jews? Eye for an eye philosophy?

they are not ordered to make war against non-jews. show me the daily news reports of jews murdering random unarmed civilians and i'll start to worry.

the fact that they are ordered to make war on unbelievers, and that they do it with great regularity, all around the world, generally against unarmed civilians.

the fact that the US orders war on unbelievers, and that they do it with great regularity, all around the world, generally against unarmed civilians.

Fixed it

they are not ordered to make war against non-jews. show me the daily news reports of jews murdering random unarmed civilians and i'll start to worry.

By proxy, the Jews have lobbied to kill 250,000 non combatants in the past 15 or so years.

indigenous says

the fact that the US orders war on unbelievers, and that they do it with great regularity, all around the world, generally against unarmed civilians.

Fixed it

US isn't killing us. Jihad is.

Whatever reasons US is using is another topic, sometimes you just got to pick the side that is saving you from getting your head cut off by some Jihadist, who will do it with pleasure in the name of Islam.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

indigenous says

the fact that the US orders war on unbelievers, and that they do it with great regularity, all around the world, generally against unarmed civilians.

The fact that this thread has 4 "unwatch" is evidence that a certain segment can't stomach the truth when it goes against their ideology.

Oh man SoftShell that Putin crab avatar was hilarious, I'm going to miss it. Thanks for all the laughs mate.

SoftShell says

Two wrongs do not make a right.

But a nod to the pathology would lend a modicum of hope to curing the disease. Instead this country is zombified, Edward Bernays style towards war.

indigenous says

By proxy, the Jews have lobbied to kill 250,000 non combatants in the past 15 or so years.

you're just making up random shit now.

the US has lousy foreign policy as a rule, but does not go off to deliberately murder as many unarmed civilians as possible.

I think the correct path is somewhere between obama and lindsey graham...

indigenous says

SoftShell says

Two wrongs do not make a right.

But a nod to the pathology would lend a modicum of hope to curing the disease. Instead this country is zombified, Edward Bernays style towards war.

I was gonna leave it up for awhile then I came across this spiderlady...couldn't resist...

FortWayne says

Oh man SoftShell that Putin crab avatar was hilarious, I'm going to miss it. Thanks for all the laughs mate.

This is the difference.
Civilian casualties during wars fought by the US are always accidental. ( unless you have an example otherwise )
Civilian casualties during wars fought by isis are almost always intentional.

indigenous says

the fact that the US orders war on unbelievers, and that they do it with great regularity, all around the world, generally against unarmed civilians.

the US has lousy foreign policy as a rule, but does not go off to deliberately murder as many unarmed civilians as possible.

the US has lousy foreign policy as a rule, but does not go off to deliberately murder as many unarmed civilians as possible.

Since the US kills over 100 non combatants to every terrorist, to continue in war is the same as saying they intentionally do it. Ignorance is no excuse.

It fails to acknowledge the efforts of the military industrial complex that has metathesized through the entire culture of the US.

SoftShell says

This is the difference.

Civilian casualties during wars fought by the US are always accidental. ( unless you have an example otherwise )

Civilian casualties during wars fought by isis are almost always intentional.

Are we talking about the difference between manslaughter and 1st degree murder?

In any case the US kills way more people...

ja says

What attributes of muslim culture are you most worried about? Jihad? What aren't you worried about Jews? Eye for an eye philosophy? Wealth accumulation focus, what brings on deflation?

A) Jews don't blow up nightclubs. The worst thing Jews do with Nightclubs do is keep two sets of books.
B) The vast majority of Jews don't beat women for being under-dressed in public.
C) Jews aren't coming to Europe by the millions, demanding welfare, picking which European country they want to live in based on the amount of Cash benefits they receive.
D) Rarely produce Suicide Bombers
E) Jewish Populations produce extra amounts of Science and Commerce points for each City that takes them in. That should be in Civilization 6.

F) No Jew carries signs that read "Behead those who insult my Bagel."

anonymous says

So are these political, religious or economic refugees ? If you are seeking safety from persecution, death etc., why is the status/class of life such a high priority?

Human nature. They should prefer going into a homeless shelter than having to deal with bombs. But they don't. If they only had this choice, perhaps they would still wait for the shelter or wait in Syria till things got worse. I'd probably do the same.

anonymous says

Again - who benefits ? Cross-cultural like in more opportunities to radicalize those that haven't got on board yet? Is this better for the Muslim communities in the U.S. or the country ? Where are the fatwas from the Imams in the U.S. condemning the religious violence of Islam ?

From my experience, bad apples are more likely to go bad than the other way around. When I have seen a gang member that get into a white church, the church an the gang are more likely to understand and help each other than if the getho just remains a getho. But I don't know how much my experience can be generalized.

anonymous says

How much time do you have ?

Just list the top 3 problems you have living with a liberal muslim in your neighborhood. IMHO, having somebody culturally different doesn't necessarily I'm going to swallow their culture. I have some gay neighbors and I'd first become a muslim than a gay. Doesn't mean I want gays out of my neighborhood. But perhaps I'd like to see out some unfriendly straight ones.

No, we are talking about how wars are waged and what is intentionally targeted...

indigenous says

Are we talking about the difference between manslaughter and 1st degree murder?

SoftShell says

This is the difference.

Civilian casualties during wars fought by the US are always accidental. ( unless you have an example otherwise )

Civilian casualties during wars fought by isis are almost always intentional.

Right on.

I criticized the destruction of the MSF hospital. Word is that the Boeing "Human Terrain System" is about as Reliable as WindowsMe, and was on the fritz. Then some dumbass MBA Officer decided to go ahead without out, or without paper/older system backup.

But the US does not deliberately target civilians in the Middle East. Muslims do.

In fact, Muslim Extremist brutality isn't "Asymmetric" warfare. When Al Nusra shoots a woman in the head after a Religious Court found her guilty of Adultery, that has nothing to do with the West. It's Islamist domestic policy.

SoftShell says

No, we are talking about how wars are waged and what is intentionally targeted...

I disagree, can you tell the difference between a dead body caused by a terrorist or a dead body caused by collateral damage? Does it matter?

Not to the dead person. But it does to the living...

indigenous says

can you tell the difference between a dead body caused by a terrorist or a dead body caused by collateral damage? Does it matter?

the US has lousy foreign policy as a rule, but does not go off to deliberately murder as many unarmed civilians as possible.

No, it's call collateral damage. How many civilians have died in Irak and how many in New York? Of course, the life of an American civilian is proportional to its GDP per-capita multiplied by X

they are not ordered to make war against non-jews. show me the daily news reports of jews murdering random unarmed civilians and i'll start to worry.

Granted, a Jew will punish you only if you break their law, mainly societal order related. Check out this great movie

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3062880

But at least they keep it for themselves. A Muslim will punish you if you blasphemy/are unbeliever, depending on how radical is the Muslim. But I think you have hanging out with the wrong type of Muslim. I don't want to remove from US all the Muslim on the name of those that do jihad, nor all the gays on the name of those who try to take out my pants when I'm drunk. Can't you think on a better way of assessing people's personality/intentions other than by religion or sexual orientation? I'm sure this is a big business opportunity.

anonymous says

What about the clerics who continue to preach hate and violence in the name of Allah

This compares to Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/AyenRCJ_4Ww

anonymous says

Your statement about not swallowing their culture – not even a hint of wanting to assimilate unless it is on your terms. In other words I will use their laws and whatever else is of value to me to get my way and demand things be the way or as close as possible to what I am comfortable with and the hell with the rest of it – unless we can get them to capitulate to our way of thinking and adapt our laws which is the long term goal.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/PR_3M4TLG74

The Identitarian Left can't comprehend that no bombing or Drone Strike campaign is perfectly free of Collateral Damage.

They can't grasp that people who flee a war zone where the violence is being contributed to by the West, may not feel "Thankful".

They can't grasp that many people who claim to be refugees aren't, and even if they are, may sympathize with the Jihadi groups against Assad AND the West.

@thunderlips11
How do you know? Do you happen to be Syrian to say that "they sympathize"? Give me a break. You have no idea.

ddshutlz says

How do you know? Do you happen to be Syrian to say that "they sympathize"? Give me a break. You have no idea.

I don't?

13% of Syrian refugees have a positive view of ISIS. Only the usual whingers had a more positive view of ISIS. And that doesn't include their opinion about other, slightly less extremist Wahabi/Salafi groups, like Al-Qaeda, Muslim Brotherhood, several "FSA" sub groups etc.

Another 10% had a "Mixed View". That's 23% who are positive to mixed about ISIL, or about 1 in 4.

Source: Arab Center for Research and Policy Studies, Doha.
http://english.dohainstitute.org/file/Get/40ebdf12-8960-4d18-8088-7c8a077e522e

SoftShell says

Civilian casualties during wars fought by the US are always accidental.

We know that when we engage in war that civilians will be killed. We invaded Iraq under false pretenses knowing that civilians would be killed. They were somewhat randomly killed, and I suppose you could argue that missiles fired at a distance or bombs dropped from high altitude are somehow more civilized, except the folks firing the missiles and dropping the bombs know that they would be killing civilians. They hopefully wish that weren't the case, but civilians were killed nonetheless. Now if you kill civilians for a lie, and your own troops as well, are you somehow more noble than a whack job shooter who has his/her own religious rationale?