patrick.net

APOCALYPSE, I am wildly entertained by your solutions to the problems that we face, lol. I can't say I disagree with you.

APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch says

Rebuilt is as an exact replica of Venice.

I still want to know how Starfleet convinces the Marin hippies and the SF hippies to build Starfleet HQ in the Presidio and Starfleet Academy on the Marin side where Fort Baker is. The location of Starfleet has to be the most unrealistic thing in Star Trek. Or maybe those annoying hippies finally die out and lose influence by then.

BayArea says

Get out from under the Google bus liberal protesters and embrace the
capitalism of our great nation!

Human's are pretty simple. Everything is good unless it affects them in a negative way, then it sucks.

That's why you throw the rent/buy calculator in the garbage, if you love a place, you buy it. It is expensive because it is coveted, not overpriced.

corntrollio says

I still want to know how Starfleet convinces the Marin hippies and the SF hippies to build Starfleet HQ in the Presidio and Starfleet Academy on the Marin side where Fort Baker is. The location of Starfleet has to be the most unrealistic thing in Star Trek. Or maybe those annoying hippies finally die out and lose influence by then.

Until the movie, "Star Trek Into Darkness", where they'd showcased London, you would have thought that San Francisco was the only city on earth.

Before that film, it seemed like SF was earth's capital and everyone else was evenly spread out across the earth, since flight (or transport) time was so short, to get from place to place.

Thus, after the mid-21th century nuclear war, it appeared that cities like Boston, NYC, Philly, DC, etc, were all gone and not rebuilt, because ppl didn't need to live near major cities anymore.

The protestors need to head to city hall which is responsible for the new development limits keeping housing supply too low and pumping prices up.

drew_eckhardt says

The protestors need to head to city hall which is responsible for the new development limits keeping housing supply too low and pumping prices up.

Drew, for a Bay Area point of view, you may be right.

But from an SF point of view, where you gonna build?

But as the article says, who am I to tell someone how they should or shouldn't react after their mother/grandmother who has lived in her home in SF for 30+ yrs is all of a sudden forced to move out of the city so that a 25yr old SW programmer can move in.

Renting has a lot of benefits. It is a choice nonetheless. One cannot demand mobility and permanence at the same time.

No one is forced out if he or she can pay the market rent.

We should not tell these people how to react. But those who disrupt traffic or cause hazardous conditions should be arrested.

corntrollio says

The location of Starfleet has to be the most unrealistic thing in Star Trek.

IMO many things in Star Trek are unrealistic. Let's start with human nature.

Our future, if there is one, probably resembles the one in Firefly.

Peter P says

But as the article says, who am I to tell someone how they should or shouldn't react after their mother/grandmother who has lived in her home in SF for 30+ yrs is all of a sudden forced to move out of the city so that a 25yr old SW programmer can move in.

Renting has a lot of benefits. It is a choice nonetheless. One cannot demand mobility and permanence at the same time.

No one is forced out if he or she can pay the market rent.

We should not tell these people how to react. But those who disrupt traffic or cause hazardous conditions should be arrested.

Agreed 100% and well put.

Peter P says

No one is forced out if he or she can pay the market rent.

That's ideology, not data. During the foreclosure crisis for example, foreclosure mills in cities without rent control evicted many tenants who were paying market rent. The whole point of the Ellis Act is to evict tenants entirely, regardless of rent. But it's a distraction from the OP anyway: the real issue is the city does not allow enough housing to be constructed, and the very same protestors who complain about demand raising the price, also oppose more construction. That's the real problem: the increased demand collides with artificially restricted supply. Some of the protestors might be trying to shake down the tech companies for PR contributions to various causes, which has already begun (e.g. Google will donate Muni passes to impoverished kids). The end result of the protests though is more of the same, i.e. a housing shortage due to insufficient construction.

Where in the world are you going to build in SF? Am I missing something?

Are you suggesting we built more skyscraper apartments?

I walked 2.2 miles on mission street yesterday. I saw a mentally ill elderly on drugs punching an old man passing by. The old man had a cane and defended himself with it. The two were hitting each other pretty bad. They run to the street and almost got hit by a bus. They ended up on the floor in the middle of the street fighting. It was 10:30 in the morning.
San Francisco needs a serious intervention. I have never seen anything like this anywhere in the world. I have been in many third world countries, many European states, I live in the east bay, and even worked with gang members. San Francisco is pathetic.

BayArea says

Where in the world are you going to build in SF?

Up.

BayArea says

Am I missing something?

Apparently so. Especially if you live in Oakland, as your avatar says.

BayArea says

Are you suggesting we built more skyscraper apartments?

The current average height is around 3 stories. You could triple the housing supply by going to 10 stories, which is not exactly a skyscraper.

BayArea says

drew_eckhardt says

The protestors need to head to city hall which is responsible for the new development limits keeping housing supply too low and pumping prices up.

Drew, for a Bay Area point of view, you may be right.

But from an SF point of view, where you gonna build?

Where lower density buildings stand today. Town houses and low-rise apartment buildings are not space efficient ways to convert land into homes.

So basically old-timers who think SF is the center of the universe... they don't like being muscled out of the "natural order" and rents by the new kids on the block.

I think that about covers it.

Francis says

I walked 2.2 miles on mission street yesterday. I saw a mentally ill elderly on drugs punching an old man passing by. The old man had a cane and defended himself with it. The two were hitting each other pretty bad. They run to the street and almost got hit by a bus. They ended up on the floor in the middle of the street fighting. It was 10:30 in the morning.

San Francisco needs a serious intervention. I have never seen anything like this anywhere in the world. I have been in many third world countries, many European states, I live in the east bay, and even worked with gang members. San Francisco is pathetic.

Agreed though I prefer SF over the east bay. There are still a few great neighborhoods left in SF, just not the mission or anything close to downtown. Try ocean beach.

Vicente says

So basically old-timers who think SF is the center of the universe... they don't like being muscled out of the "natural order" and rents by the new kids on the block.

I think that about covers it.

Mostly old-timer renters, the old-timer owners are gloating about the bid up house prices and welcome the google armies of geekdom with open arms.

mell says

Agreed though I prefer SF over the east bay. There are still a few great neighborhoods left in SF, just not the mission or anything close to downtown. Try ocean beach.

Sea Cliff is my favorite. It is too remote for the riff-raff.

DanTheMan's comment: "The people protesting Google are either paid or very stupid. The fact of the matter is that Google is not to claim for rising rent cost or rising anything costs for that matter. These people need to look to the Federal Reserve and US Government ( no they are not one in the same fools ) for destroying the value of the Dollar. Prices rise as currency is diluted and rising costs are mostly the symptom of a failing currency."

Again, remember Germany, 1923?

BayArea says

Are you suggesting we built more skyscraper apartments?

Yes.

BayArea says

Where in the world are you going to build in SF? Am I missing something?

Are you suggesting we built more skyscraper apartments?

Why not, Two Rincon Hill finally got built. More taller buildings here would be a good thing to offset all the single-family homes.

But it doesn't even take skyscrapers. The asshole NIMBYs of SF make shrill cries of "Manhattanization" whenever you want to build something taller than 4 stories, but you could easily do 6-10 story mid-rises to increase density here.

Changing zoning to allow more multi-family housing and combine SFH lots for multi-family housing could also increase density quite a bit. We are making poor use of the land we already have.

Those who ride the Google Bus from San Francisco to Mountain View could live closer to work for a lot less rent.

They want to live in the city and Google needs to run the buses to get them to work for Google.

That is the bottom line.

BayArea says

Are you suggesting we built more skyscraper apartments?

I am. Why not?

corntrollio says

But it doesn't even take skyscrapers. The asshole NIMBYs of SF make shrill cries of "Manhattanization" whenever you want to build something taller than 4 stories, but you could easily do 6-10 story mid-rises to increase density here.

Actually large portions of NYC are like this. Not the Manhattan like you see on TV, but what you described sounds a lot like Brooklyn and Queens.

zzyzzx says

BayArea says

Are you suggesting we built more skyscraper apartments?

I am. Why not?

I was just confirming that's what you meant. Why not is right.

I'd started a thread on SF being overrated some time back ...

http://patrick.net/?p=1238688&page=1#comments

Larry Page is one cheap SOB, he should spring for one of these for every employee.

The best article on this topic, as previously noted on PatNet, is the TechCrunch article that identifies the primary culprit: zoning and planning restrictions that favor commercial development while limiting residential construction up and down the entire SF peninsula. If SF residential buildings were allowed to be taller, we could have plenty of housing at reasonable market prices.

I'd say that the answer is to start a tech center between the Univ of Michigan/Ann Arbor and the 'burbs of Detroit and forget about SFBA including Silicon Valley. That region is ripe for a renaissance in activities, low CoL and lot of college graduates and ex-auto workers.

Some companies have tried to lure talent to the Detroit area, but experienced difficulties, e.g. Cengage went bankrupt.

SFBA is ideal except for excessive restrictions on construction. Stanford & Berkeley attract & produce talent, and the climate keeps people here.

curious2 says

Some companies have tried to lure talent to the Detroit area, but experienced difficulties, e.g. Cengage went bankrupt.

It has to first start with the Univ of Michigan (all campuses), Michigan State, etc, and former auto worker engineers, not outsiders.

Once that initial mass is created, they need to start to pull the folks from the NE corridor, including upstate NY/Penn, who're able to see their families within a 10-14 hr drive.

You see, the SFBA is not a society. Ppl don't make friends there, outside of their jobs.

If such a thing was available, I would have moved there, years ago. In fact, despite having grown up in Massachusetts, I'd been meeting Univ of Michigan alumni everywhere, up and down the coastline. They're very close and would love to be able to reunite with their club back in Ann Arbor, if that were possible.

That's a good point regarding Michigan graduates. I noticed the same about Cornell grads in NYC, so I wonder if the climate and isolation might contribute to forming close and enduring friendships.

Rin says

You see, the SFBA is not a society. Ppl don't make friends there, outside of their jobs.

I'd like to read more about that, e.g. if you have links. I've made some friends here, but it is different compared to NYC and in fact some of my favorite people here moved from there. A friend who moved here from Massachusetts said the issue here is transience, so many people arriving and leaving that most ppl don't get too attached.

curious2 says

Rin says

You see, the SFBA is not a society. Ppl don't make friends there, outside of their jobs.

I'd like to read more about that, e.g. if you have links. I've made some friends here, but it is different compared to NYC and in fact some of my favorite people here moved from there.

Sorry, no links. These are ppl who I'd known, who'd grown up between New England and New Jersey, and had moved to SF a/o SV for work but was never able to really develop true friendships or communities there.

There was this business trip to Silicon Valley, where I'd arrived with an entourage of ppl between Boston & NJ. All the lonely workers there latched onto us because in effect, we'd provided the community that they were lacking. We'd basically provided a social venue for them where none was available otherwise.

One time, a co-worker and I went to a Japanese Teppanyaki Steak House together and the chef there told us that we were the coolest ppl he'd seen in a long time because many in SV were *ssholes. Now, we weren't doing anything special but simply talking about our road trip and trying to make acquaintance with the fellow.

Everything in yellow is zoned for a 40 foot maximum height:

Rezoned for buildings like salesforce.com's 61 story tower with fast-tracked permits we could have enough affordable housing in the city for the protesters plus the rest of us within a few years

drew_eckhardt says

Rezoned for buildings like salesforce.com's 61 story tower

Thinking too small. Go straight to Arcology.

On the Philly comparison from my thread:

corntrollio says

Just talk to SF residents who have been robbed, which happens more frequently than anyone is willing to admit, due to the ample gangs, projects, and transients

That's just like Philly, which is why when I did a 9 month consulting project there, I'd rented a place in a safe suburb. I came into the office early, before rush hour, and left before 4. And then, I'd dialed in, to check on things afterwards in the evening.

The place I was looking at in a so-called safe section of center city, had a guy get gunned down, just around the corner, by a street gang. There was no way I was going to move into Philly, after that had occurred. From what I'd heard from my friend, who'd lived there after that slaying, the Philly PD never solved the case. It was like 'which gang?'

That's real deterrence for you.