patrick.net

Homeboy says

Zlxr says

and since the nature of things is to evolve and reproduce and survive - how do the scientists know that what they genetically modify will stay modified the way they intended?

I think you watch too many science fiction movies.

That is actually a huge, valid concern and the reason a lot of countries have categorically banned GMOs. If they can keep the Salmon farmed and confined and slap a label on it, you could call this an almost side-effect free experiment. With plants confinement being close to impossible, GMO produce/fruits/crop become a gigantic issue.

mell says

That is actually a huge, valid concern and the reason a lot of countries have categorically banned GMOs. If they can keep the Salmon farmed and confined and slap a label on it, you could call this an almost side-effect free experiment. With plants confinement being close to impossible, GMO produce/fruits/crop become a gigantic issue.

I think you misread what he wrote. You're talking about confinement of GMOs; he was talking about the GMOs themselves, what? mutating into evil monsters or something?

Yes it's true - I believe there's a conspiracy.

If Doctors won't or can't honor the hippocratic oath. And if the Health Care we pay for can decide when and how much care we can or cannot have - and refuse to cover certain illnesses -- then there's some kind of a conspiracy going on.

Illness is Illness. Sometimes all that patented medicine is worse than the illnesses. When they start firing Nurses for refusing vaccines and making laws to "make sure our food is safe" and the allow filthy fish farming - I think the FDA has lost their credibility.

What they care about is the bank account of large corporations.

I hate to use the term conspiracy but I do have to question a system which allows drugs like statins which have terrible side effects for questionable benefit yet deny marijuana which has a laundry list of benefits with few side effects.

New Renter says

I hate to use the term conspiracy but I do have to question a system which allows drugs like statins which have terrible side effects for questionable benefit yet deny marijuana which has a laundry list of benefits with few side effects.

Not what I'm talking about. Read Zlxr's last post and consider if you really want to align yourself with him. Also, look at those websites he gets his information from. Do you really think the chickenpox vaccine caused the herpes virus? C'mon, that's just patent nonsense.

Zlxr says

I took Lipitor for awhile and got really sick. My Doctor was basically a very good and caring Doctor and yet this doctor was practically screaming at me that if I didn't keep taking it that I would die. That it was better for me to be sick than to die. Well - I decided not to agree with the doctor. I also talked to a Pharmacist who told me that based on my symptoms I had no business taking that drug. So I quit taking Lipitor. It's been over 20 years and I'm not dead yet. Statins may work for some people - but they always make me feel bad. It's a choice I made and who knows maybe my choice will shorten my life and maybe it won't. But I certainly didn't die as quickly as they said I would. I haven't had a heart attack or a stroke yet.

So excuse me if I don't buy into all the crap we are being told. Maybe one day you'll live long enough to figure that out.

This might be of interest to you:

https://www.statineffects.com/info/

Of course there is always Chelation Therapy which they would have you believe is extremely dangerous. I didn't have any problems whatsoever.

And one could look into the Enzymes Serrapeptase and Nattokinase.

And since the first thing most doctors will do if you have a stroke or a heart attack is to give you a shot of magnesium --- you would think that they could/would have a lab test to make sure that people with a risk of strokes or heart attacks have enough magnesium in their bodies and in the proper ratio to the other minerals.

You would think.

Zlxr says

And since the first thing most doctors will do if you have a stroke or a
heart attack is to give you a shot of magnesium --- you would think that they
could/would have a lab test to make sure that people with a risk of strokes or
heart attacks have enough magnesium in their bodies and in the proper ratio to
the other minerals.

You would think.

This one is mysterious to me, too. I have been eating high-magnesium foods for many years now as I have a family history of hypertension. The first week of my changed diet, my blood pressure went from average of 139/85 to average of 114/77. I was a believer after that.

Zlxr says

Homeboy - you sure like to stretch things.

Bullshit. I'm repeating EXACTLY what you are churning out here. It's right there on the page for everyone to see.

Zlxr says

When AIDS first came out it was considered a Gay Disease and very little was done about it until it started affecting children etc. However, TB was considered contagious and they practically climb in your window to make sure you get treated.

What on earth are you talking about? There IS NO vaccination for AIDS. If there was one, don't you think we would use it? TB vaccinations have changed what was once a widespread cause of death to a relatively rare disease. If there were a cure for AIDS, they would definitely be "climbing in your window" to treat people.

Philistine says

This one is mysterious to me, too. I have been eating high-magnesium foods for many years now as I have a family history of hypertension. The first week of my changed diet, my blood pressure went from average of 139/85 to average of 114/77. I was a believer after that.

Can you give more details on this? Of course I was told to cut down on salt, but I haven't heard the magnesium thing.

Homeboy says

Can you give more details on this? Of course I was told to cut down on salt, but I haven't heard the magnesium thing.

Well, start with reading about what they call the "DASH diet", which was pioneered for reducing blood pressure. I don't really follow it, per se, but I applied its principles of increasing foods with potassium, magnesium, calcium, and fiber, and reducing fat, and incorporated that into my cooking and general eating habits. I now basically eat something similar to the so-called Mediterranean diet (except for the occasional cannoli bender or gin martini binge).

Zlxr says

Homeboy - there never was and never will be a vaccine that cures everything. That's the part you are missing and if you wait long enough for a vaccine you'll die first.

What are you talking about? I was the one who told YOU that there was no vaccine for AIDS. What your little conspiracy theory is missing is that the reason TB is treated differently than AIDS is because one has a vaccine and the other DOESN'T.

I've heard this "vaccines are evil" nonsense many times from various kooks. There is no science behind this view. It has been proven over and over. Vaccines have been very important in controlling diseases that used to cause countless deaths. To believe otherwise is just silly.

OF COURSE there's not a vaccine that "cures everything". What kind of strawman is that? Nobody ever said there was.

By the way, vaccines do not cure diseases; they PREVENT them. Once you have a disease, it is too late to be vaccinated. You seem to lack even this basic understanding of what a vaccine is. Maybe if you understood them, you wouldn't be so fearful.

The rest of your conspiracy rant is much too long for me to bother reading, sorry.Zlxr says

All I can say - is good luck. But instead of trashing what I have to say - read read read not just what I say - but what other people and other doctors have to say. We are all different and there are many approaches to take.

I think the problem is that YOU are reading the wrong things. I glanced at that website you were touting, and it's really nonsense. It really doesn't bother you that the first thing they say is, "We are in the period of tribulation predicted in Revelations"? Does that really sound like someone who is thinking scientifically? Without science, people would still be dying from syphilis, or from infections due to simple cuts, or from "doctors" practicing bloodletting. I just don't get why some people want to throw science out the window. Just because something is "alternative" does not mean it is automatically right. Playing around with untested "alternative" remedies can be dangerous. Don't do stuff to your body just because you read it on some kooky conspiracy website. Please. I hope you will be o.k.

Homeboy says

By the way, vaccines do not cure diseases; they PREVENT them. Once you have a disease, it is too late to be vaccinated.

That is a too common misunderstanding. Some vaccines do work retroactively, for example smallpox was eradicated by a retroactive vaccine.

Retroactive vaccine candidates exist for HIV also, but cannot get NIH funding. The drug companies are not interested in a vaccine. They prefer Obamacare, which enables them to make billion$ annually selling daily pills.

curious2 says

That is a too common misunderstanding. Some vaccines do work retroactively, for example smallpox was eradicated by a retroactive vaccine.

Retroactive vaccine candidates exist for HIV also, but cannot get NIH funding. The drug companies are not interested in a vaccine. They prefer Obamacare, which enables them to make billion$ annually selling daily pills.

Bullshit.

"smallpox was globally eradicated by 1980...smallpox vaccine can work in individuals who are already infected: those who receive the vaccine within 3 days of infection usually do not become infectious and subsequently recover with long-term immunity, those who receive the vaccine 4–7 days post-exposure experience less severe symptoms but will be as infectious as an unvaccinated person...."

Smallpox is only one example of a retroactive vaccine, there are others. For anyone who cares about facts, yes, some vaccines do work retroactively. For Homeboy, please feel free to Ignore me; your comments are not worth quoting, and I'm long past trying to explain anything to you.

curious2 says

"smallpox was globally eradicated by 1980...smallpox vaccine can work in individuals who are already infected: those who receive the vaccine within 3 days of infection usually do not become infectious and subsequently recover with long-term immunity, those who receive the vaccine 4–7 days post-exposure experience less severe symptoms but will be as infectious as an unvaccinated person...."

Smallpox is only one example of a retroactive vaccine, there are others. For anyone who cares about facts, yes, some vaccines do work retroactively. For Homeboy, please feel free to Ignore me; your comments are not worth quoting, and I'm long past trying to explain anything to you.

Nice how you left out the rest of the paragraph:

"those who receive the vaccine more than 7 days post-exposure gain no benefit "

Vaccines do not cure diseases. They prevent them. If it cured a disease, it would be called a cure, not a vaccine. I'm not sure what the point of your little nitpick is; that doesn't change the understanding of the difference between a vaccine and a cure. If, as you seem to think, they are the same thing, then why does the word vaccine even exist? You seem angry. I wonder if this is more about a personal vendetta for you than it is about the truth.

The fact remains, some vaccines do work retroactively, including most famously the smallpox vaccine. (More recent examples may include TB and HPV.)

Homeboy says

If, as you seem to think, they are the same thing, then why does the word vaccine even exist?

The word vaccine refers to agents that improve immunity; the definition has nothing to do with retroactivity. Nothing in your time-wasting comment contradicted the fact that smallpox vaccine works retroactively.

Your failure even to look up a word that you don't understand, and your choice to misuse your own misunderstanding as the basis of a strawman attack, say more about you than about anyone else. SIWOTI isn't worth an angry vendetta but you have demonstrated a time-wasting pattern of playing juvenile games, clutching any excuse to use profanity and fling your fecal matter at your own screen, even when it's off topic anyway. Usually I don't even bother correcting your errors anymore, but vaccines can save lives and improve health so your public ignorance concerning them seemed worth addressing. I began politely but you responded with profanity and your latest comment attempts gratuitously to impugn my integrity, despite the fact that you are clearly wrong. Being too short for your local boxing ring, and too old for your local arcade, might explain your trollish comments but doesn't make them worthwhile.

Very bad idea:

http://www.youtube.com/embed/ahihGKZC5Kk

Zlxr says

And since there are some cheaper things such as colloidal silver, ionic silver, MMS etc. etc. etc. that are more broad spectrum and basically safer than alot of "medicines" people need to know that they don't necessarily have to see a Doctor for everything that ails them.

Please do be careful with alternative medicines. As JPT points out colloidal silver has some serious drawbacks.

There was an episode of Modern Marvels showcasing failed inventions. One was an alternative medicine based on radium. That didn't' t work out so well for the people who took it. One person took so much his jaw literally fell off.

Anyone who's afraid of GM food and thinks there are better alternatives should read this - and consider 'who' created all of the fear in the first place:

http://www.marklynas.org/2013/01/lecture-to-oxford-farming-conference-3-january-2013/

Or just watch the video...

Lecture to Oxford Farming Conference, 3 January 2013

"I want to start with some apologies. For the record, here and upfront, I apologise for having spent several years ripping up GM crops. I am also sorry that I helped to start the anti-GM movement back in the mid 1990s, and that I thereby assisted in demonising an important technological option which can be used to benefit the environment."

curious2 says

I began politely but you responded with profanity and your latest comment attempts gratuitously to impugn my integrity, despite the fact that you are clearly wrong. Being too short for your local boxing ring, and too old for your local arcade, might explain your trollish comments but doesn't make them worthwhile.

Wow, dude. You seem to have a pretty thin skin. If you want to attack people,but then flip out when they call bullshit on you, maybe you should stay out of the forums. You don't even know the definition of vaccine, but that sure doesn't stop you from being an ass about it.

Vaccine - any preparation used as a PREVENTIVE inoculation to confer immunity against a specific disease, usually employing an innocuous form of the disease agent, as killed or weakened bacteria or viruses, to stimulate antibody production.

You need to learn the difference between "prevention" and "cure". It's not that hard. Pretty basic stuff.

Zlxr says

Homeboy just likes making excrement - he's not interested in doing anything productive.

Look at the blue man. THAT'S what happens when you throw science out the window and start believing hokum. You are doing a disservice to everyone here when you propagate random nonsense you find on nutball websites.

The fact remains, some vaccines can work retroactively, saving lives by improving immune response in people who are already infected. I have cited three examples already (smallpox and reportedly TB and HPV). Additional examples include rabies, and further research could save many lives. Homeboy's homemade misleading definitions have no effect, his willfully ignorant trolling being merely a waste of time. He insists on not learning anything, even when confronted with clear evidence, but I hope his trolling won't fool anyone else. The exchange is off topic, but it is a matter of life and death for large numbers of people so I hope the published examples have clarified the matter for people who actually read. If you get bit by a rabid dog (or Homeboy), please don't fall for Homeboy's willful ignorance; get vaccinated promptly, because the vaccine works on people who are already infected.

curious2 says

The fact remains, some vaccines can work retroactively, saving lives by improving immune response in people who are already infected.

So what? What does that have to do with what we're discussing, other than for you to imagine you scored some sort of "win"? I'm trying to make a point here, while you are playing a little nitpicky semantics game. So who's the troll?

The fact remains, some vaccines can work retroactively, saving lives by therapeutic immune response in people who are already infected. I have already cited four examples (smallpox, rabies, and reportedly TB and HPV), and further research could save many lives. When used therapeutically, vaccines differ from antibiotics in that vaccines work via the immune system, and a single dose can confer immunity lasting many years. Antibiotics cannot cure rabies or smallpox, because both are viral diseases; certain vaccines can cure infected people and confer immunity, including the example that eradicated smallpox worldwide. Homeboy's refusal to understand the mechanism of vaccines, and their benefit, should not fool anyone else. He has cited no sources whatsoever, while I have cited actual examples that anyone can check.

Zlxr says

retroactive viruses

I think you mean retroviruses. They use reverse transcriptase, but they aren't retroactive.

Retroviruses can mutate quickly, so they pose a particular challenge for vaccine research. Current retrovirus vaccines include Hepatitis B, and there have been efforts to develop a retroactive vaccine against a retrovirus, e.g. HIV. Retroactive vaccines can be used therapeutically to cure disease in people who are already infected, and prophylactically to improve immunity and prevent disease in people not yet infected. (Of course, not all vaccines can work retroactively, and even retroactive vaccines have limits; for example, they can't cure a patient who is already dead, or whose condition is too far gone.)

Regarding Lyme disease, there was a vaccine, but it was discontinued due to low demand. The immunity did not last long:

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/lyme/default.htm

One reason for the low demand was, insurance refused to pay for it. People demand insurance, and pay for insurance, then find that insurance doesn't pay for what they actually need. This problem is intrinsic to third party payment systems in general, and for-profit insurance in particular.

Another reason for low demand was, some people reported autoimmune symptoms after getting vaccinated. There was no evidence to connect the vaccine to the symptoms, but American law essentially discriminates against vaccines by saying you don't need to prove a connection in order to get $ ("compensation") funded by a special tax on all vaccines. Obamacare will actually increase the tax on vaccines in order to increase drug subsidies, so there should be more sick people generating more spending than ever before.

Unfortunately the American system is dominated by rent-seeking "special interests," which have learned to use lobbying money and the revolving door in order to maximize their own revenue at the expense of the public treasury and even public health. Progress occurs partly in spite of that system, yet also partly because of it, and is always three steps forward and two steps back.

Homeboy says

curious2 says

The fact remains, some vaccines can work retroactively, saving lives by improving immune response in people who are already infected.

So what? What does that have to do with what we're discussing, other than for you to imagine you scored some sort of "win"? I'm trying to make a point here, while you are playing a little nitpicky semantics game. So who's the troll?

This is just stupid nitpicking all around the word "retroactive" that is totally meaningless since the term "retroactive vaccine" isn't a recognized or used term. I've seen it maybe twice in my life.

Vaccines work the same if you are infected with a virus or not. You build antibodies. If you don't have the virus you build up enough antibodies over time to fight off the virus totally. If you already have the virus you build antibodies exactly the same way, but it will be a race between the antibodies and the virus. How big a head start the virus has will determine the outcome, aka how sick you get. That's why over x days of infection (depending on the vaccine) the vaccine is of no value, you can't build enough antibodies fast enough to make any difference.

curious2 says

Current retrovirus vaccines include Hepatitis B, and there have been efforts to develop a retroactive vaccine against a retrovirus, e.g. HIV.

With all due respect without setting off a curious2 posting frenzy Hep B isn't a retrovirus. It's a one of the Hepadnaviridae family which are related in some respects to retrovirus. Both families use a reverse transcriptase enzyme but each are unique and distinctly on their own. Caulimoviridae and Hepadnaviridae families are double strand Dna genome using an Rna intermediate to replicate while Retroviridae, Metaviridae, Pseudoviridae families are single strand Rna genome using a Dna intermediate to replicate.

Retroviridae actually exist in the human genome. About 8% of of the human genome is comprised of endogenous human retroviruses. This ability to integrate the Dna introduced by reverse transcription into the host genome is what makes retroviruses not susceptible to antiviral drugs that inhibit the reverse transcriptase enzyme, like zidovudine and lamivudine. Plus makes a creating a vaccine almost impossible. Virology is very interesting stuff.

So there is not any vaccine against any retrovirus including HIV, but phase 1 trials for an HIV vaccine are in process currently. We'll see, I'm hopeful, but retroviruses are very tricky little devils.

bob2356 says

Hep B

...is a Group VII retrovirus, and has been called a "a retrovirus in disguise" and an evolutionary descendant of a retrovirus. The phrase "retroactive vaccine" has been used for more than 20 years; the phrase "therapeutic vaccine" is more common, but the point is these vaccines do cure disease in people already infected. That is precisely the opposite of what Homeboy posted earlier. There is also research and progress into cancer vaccines intended to train the immune system to recognize and destroy cancer in people who already have cancer. It isn't "nitpicking" to point out the vital fact that some vaccines can and do cure disease. The eradication of smallpox stands among the greatest achievements in human history, and it was achieved by a vaccine that both prevented infection and cured people who were already infected.

curious2 says

.is a Group VII retrovirus, and has been called a "a retrovirus in disguise" and an evolutionary descendant of a retrovirus.

I give up, which is it? A retrovirus, or a retrovirus in disguise, or a descendent of a retrovirus? Tell me when you make up your mind. My textbook says it's not a retrovirus period, once I dig it out of storage I'll copy it for you. The Baltimore classification puts retroviruses as class VI and hepadnaviruses as class VII side by side not subordinate. You have to use an RNA intermediate to be a retrovirus. I stand by there being no vaccines for a retrovirus at this time.

Yes it is nitpicky bullshit semantics. "cure", "retroactive", "prevent". There's a small window to build immunity after infection, whether you call it a cure or prevention it doesn't matter.

bob2356 says

I give up, which is it? A retrovirus, or a retrovirus in disguise, or a descendent of a retrovirus? Tell me when you make up your mind. My textbook says it's not a retrovirus period, once I dig it out of storage I'll copy it for you.

Here's what you don't seem to understand: the classification of Hep B isn't up to you or me. Perhaps this choice might help you:
(1) easily cited classifications including a book published in 2012 call it a Group VII retrovirus and explain why; or
(2) an anonymous forum poster claims it isn't, and says he has an old textbook in storage that he hasn't even seen in years that will somehow prove his claim.
#1 wins, obviously. Classifications change, for example Pluto is no longer classified as a planet but anyone can find an outdated textbook calling it one.

As to the more important point, the effective vaccine window after infection depends on the speed with which the virus causes death or otherwise runs its course. In the current examples of rabies and smallpox, this window is a few days, but in possible future examples of a lentivirus (e.g. HIV) or a cancer treatment, this window might span several years. The bottom line is, contrary to the earlier quoted comment from homeboy, some vaccines do in fact cure disease. That's a life-saving fact, not a nitpick.

In contrast, you seem relentless in your nitpick about which Baltimore Group Hep B is in. I assume that's because you're so eager to disagree with people in general, including especially me, but you aren't getting anywhere because you haven't cited any sources other than your narcotic-addled memory, which is terrible. You might have better luck in an astronomy forum, where you can harangue people with "proof" that Pluto can only ever be a planet because you claim to have an old textbook in storage that (if you recall correctly) says so.

Those are all good questions Zlxr and a thorough answer would require many links. In brief though, nobody has yet found an upper limit on the number of vaccines a body can tolerate and maintain, and if such a limit exists it is probably very high. The immune system works partly by recognizing disease and destroying it, so the faster it can do that the more likely you are to have immunity or at least recover. For example, the 1918 swine flu pandemic killed 50 million people, with the most likely to die being ages 20-40. Unlike most flu, older people were more likely to be immune or to recover; one likely explanation is they had previously been infected by a similar flu decades before, which left them with some immunity to the 1918 flu. Survivors of the 1918 flu showed immune response to similar virus into their 90s. Over a lifetime, the average person's immune system learns to recognize probably hundreds of different infections, maybe thousands. Like eyesight, the immune system peaks in early childhood, but with experience it learns to recognize much more quickly things it has already seen. This is how immunity has evolved, and Bob is correct when he says around 10% of the human genome consists of leftover viral DNA that infected our ancestors, so infection and immunity are central to evolution and our DNA. BTW 10% is a lot, in fact it's more than the difference between us and monkeys. Vaccines stimulate the immune system, and Bob is correct in describing a basic mechanism. That can confer immunity lasting many years, in some cases (e.g. Hepatitis B) a lifetime. An issue with immunity is, the immune system goes into terminal decline as people age, and diet and some drugs (especially chemotherapy) can weaken it even further, so YMMV. Regarding shingles specifically, a good brief article is available on the Mayo Clinic website.

Regarding Lyme and other disease spread by ticks, you might want to read this:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41973641/ns/health-infectious_diseases/

and (if you haven't already seen it) you might want to watch this:

http://www.underourskin.com/

One issue with bacterial infections like Lyme is the bacteria can produce neurotoxins that can cause lasting consequences even after the bacteria are gone. Another issue is, the people who get infected once, tend to get infected again (e.g. if their dogs brought ticks into the house last year, they'll probably do the same again this year and next year), so they can develop a series of re-infections adding up to almost a chronic disease.

Some people report improvement with long term use of antibiotics, instead of the short term use that insurance pays for. That might be due to the issue of re-infection, or the anti-inflammatory effects of certain antibiotics (e.g. doxycycline), or other factors. Unfortunately American law prohibits you from buying antibiotics without an Rx, and insurance increases the price dramatically. Many go to Mexico or order online, but Obamacare is increasing enforcement to stop that. Under Our Skin reports evidence that, in the case of Lyme at least, the purpose is to maintain a captive market for treatment modalities that pay more powerful lobbyists.

Much remains unknown, new bacteria and viruses evolve and often don't even get identified until someone recognizes a disease. Instead of a public health system, or a national defense system that includes health, we have a politically driven medical system that maximizes revenues and too often victimizes patients. A coalition of the bribed in the capitol presume to decide what's best for everyone's health, and it seems always to be what's most lucrative for their own patronage networks.

It Causes Tumors in Rats and Is in Your Food