patrick.net

Pete, I think your heart is in the right place, and I agree with your sentiment 100%, but some of the stuff you write here.... I can't quite decide whether you are writing a parody or you really mean it.

EconPete says

The concept of the “tragedy of the commons”

More like the "Libertarian melodrama of the commons", when libertarians use that expression. What we really have is a tragedy of selfishness, ignorance and short-term thinking.

EconPete says

In economics, we are supposed to say that things won’t matter because enough money will be available to the new cause that a new form of energy will be invented.

The first thing people have to learn is that energy cannot be "invented". It just IS. That statement is called the principle of conservation of energy, and is THE most fundamental law of physics. You need to consult with PhysicsPete instead of EconPete.

The problem is that energy may not exist where you need it, nor exist in a usable form. THAT is the main problem we have on earth. We are using up chemically stored solar energy (which is what oil and coal is) at a rate faster than it is replenished. And we are ruining the climate as a side effect.

justme says

The first thing people have to learn is that energy cannot be "invented". It just IS. That statement is called the principle of conservation of energy, which is THE most fundamental law of physics.

Correct. Energy and technology are not the same thing. "New technology" won't solve our energy predicament. Technology is building gadgets that *use* energy.

EconPete says

Because we collectively own the resources with the inhabitants of the next 20, 50, 100, 200, and 1000 years, we have the incentive to exploit the resources and not leave anything behind for the future. This is very similar to all industrialized nations piling up debt for their grandkids and their grandkid’s grandkids. The country’s future inhabitants cannot vote because they are not born yet, so the old generation enacts laws to force the unborn to pay back all their gluttonous spending.

That's why we invented abortion. If we can kill off those goddamn future generations, then we have solved the problem.

We just have an incentive not to have a next generation.

When do people wake up and realize that we do not have an energy problem.?We have an overpopulation problem.

Peter P says

When do people wake up and realize that we do not have an energy problem.?We have an overpopulation problem.

Really? There was a whole overpopulation hysteria back in the 70's. Paul Erlich's "The Population Bomb" and movies like Soylent Green.

Its rational to waste resources since 'looking cool' as you say increase the chances of scoring high quality mate, all you can really gift your kids are your genes.

Chicks dig rich guys (who waste resources with private planes, endless cars, etc).

Clearly this trend will continue.

Sometimes I really feel everyone is out for themselves, but in all actuality humanity cannot think very far ahead, many think god provides for us when the reality of it all is that mother nature is just doing her thing.

Yep, putting more women in control should do us in faster, they are excellent consumers, lol, a hundred bucks for a hair adjustment is pretty normal now, and over all they would care more about procreating than even morality.

PockyClipsNow says

Its rational to waste resources since 'looking cool' as you say increase the chances of scoring high quality mate, all you can really gift your kids are your genes.

Chicks dig rich guys (who waste resources with private planes, endless cars, etc).

Clearly this trend will continue.

Much truth in the above. Never before in the history of mankind has there been a problem that there just was not enough energy left to be exploited, and evolution has ensured that only the must wasteful MOFOs are left in the gene pool.

This is a real problem. The short-term goal to reproduce and associated behavior is EXACTLY the phenomenon that will cause near or total extinction of all our DNA in the end. It is quite the paradox, but it is true.

Wrong:

>>all you can really gift your kids are your genes.

No, you can gift them with the chance of survival.

You can also gift your kids iphones, imacs, and other Apple products.

In another post of another thread, not so far away, I had something to say about useless prattle.

Or perhaps you have overestimated the usefulness of many other things.

I believe that in our lifetime, many things will become free or so inexpensive as to be practically free. I remember when international phone calls cost $5 a minute. I now call friends in Japan using skype for free. I believe energy will be free or nearly free within our lifetime too.

If energy really does become free, I believe it will fundamentally change human civilization, just as burning oil changed human civilization over the past 100 years.

justme says

This is a real problem. The short-term goal to reproduce and associated behavior is EXACTLY the phenomenon that will cause near or total extinction of all our DNA in the end. It is quite the paradox, but it is true.

A very good point, but I think we also have to consider that in the US we've never faced a situation of unexplitable resources before. By the time our nation was founded, in Europe only the elite had been permitted to hunt for centures. The large populations and the desire fo the nobility to use the land for agricultural pursuits, had left game scarce, and that influenced Europe's developement. We had a limitless expanse Westward and it shaped us.

Yes, other nations are using resources like drunken sailors, but for the most part, they have no choice. They see it as grow or die. America is addicted to growth, even though in many arena's it's irrational for us to do so. Example: With so many jobs being lossed to automation, and another chunk to globalization and the Earthly over production of workers, why do we insist on a policy of population growth within our borders? We should clsoe our borders and let the native-born population slowly decrease for a generation or two, but we don't. Our culture, along with our evolutionary short term thinking, dooms us.

Cost effective technology will need to be employed to overcome the problems of a still expanding global population and our management of resources. Some tech is very effective, but prohibitively expensive. Example, the Passat TDI we just bought gets 42-50 MPG, but retails for around $34,500. Very efficient, but definately not in everyone's budget. Why couldn't they put the engine and tranny in a $8,000 car and sell a version for $13,000?
Beats the hell out of me.
There are a great many savings that can be made of all resources if the technology and willpower are applied.

As an engineer, I believe there are no problems that we cannot eventually conquer, look at what those before us have done. Great feats of science and engineering with the most rudimentary of tools and instruments. The great projects done with optical surveying transits, mules and carts, pick axes and simple man power surely must be a testament to our ablilities and ingenuity. Saying that we're screwed or nobody cares is BS. We need to get back to work, this time with a little more determination and purpose.

justme says

The first thing people have to learn is that energy cannot be "invented". It just IS. That statement is called the principle of conservation of energy, and is THE most fundamental law of physics. You need to consult with PhysicsPete instead of EconPete.

I was obviously referring to inventions that allow for more efficient energy extraction from a set amount of resources or potential resources that have not been discovered or discovered how to utilize yet.

genesplitter says

I believe energy will be free or nearly free within our lifetime too.

I hope you're right. Will they get fusion power working? "Putting the sun in a box" still has some technical hurdles to overcome. ;-)

genesplitter says

I believe that in our lifetime, many things will become free or so inexpensive as to be practically free. I remember when international phone calls cost $5 a minute. I now call friends in Japan using skype for free. I believe energy will be free or nearly free within our lifetime too.

Just remember that technology and energy are not the same thing. Technology is mostly about building things that consume energy. No amount of technology can violate the First Law of Thermodynamics (energy is neither created or destroyed) or the Second Law of Thermodynamics (it's easy to turn useful work into heat, but it's hard to convert heat into useful work).

I don't think energy will ever be low cost or free. Unless it is decentralized to the household unit, like solar or geothermal, a delivery system has to be maintained and serviced. The power company isn't going to give YOU any kind of a break just because their fusion reactor burns salt water for free. They still have CEOs to pay and the grid to maintain. Their corporate profits would go up substantially though, so the managment will be pleased.
Your best bet for free or low cost energy might be to go with a solar/windmill setup, but you will have to maintain that too. You could charge your electric car at home, not sure about air conditioning though.

divingengineer says

Your best bet for free or low cost energy might be to go with a solar/windmill setup, but you will have to maintain that too. You could charge your electric car at home, not sure about air conditioning though.

If off-grid energy were cheaper than on-grid energy, everyone would already be using it. ;-)

Sure, maybe in some isolated, remote areas off-grid energy is cheaper, but for the most part "grid" energy has massive economies of scale that make it quite cheap.