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Prop 30 facts

By tovarichpeter   Follow   Sun, 28 Oct 2012, 11:18am   1,227 views   14 comments
In South San Francisco CA 94080   Watch (0)   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

http://www.mercurynews.com/elections/ci_21871024/proposition-30-analysis-does-california-need-more-tax?source=rss

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In TV commercials and campaign stops, Gov. Jerry Brown has told Californians that voting against his tax-hike measure, Proposition 30, will mean devastating cuts for public schools. Yet the governor's finance team concedes that state spending will go up next year regardless of your vote.

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1. thomaswong.1986 Follow Befriend 14 threads 2,819 comments

   1   9:41pm Sun 28 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (1)   "The estimated $6 billion in extra revenue annually from Proposition 30 quickly would put the state on track to return to peak spending levels before the Great Recession." This isnt the first nor will it be the last push to raise revenue to spend on education. Dealing with a thousands of druggies/junkies would have been easier. Hand over you wallets once again folks!

2. marcus Follow Befriend (5) 166 threads 5,053 comments

   2   10:30pm Sun 28 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike   Does anyone really think California should be spending as much on education as it did in 2007 ? Seriously ? Back then, what California spent was 23rd highest in the country per student. Now what we spend places us as the 35th highest state in spending per student. Soon, if prop 30 doesn't go through, we probably have to shorten the school year, while class sizes are already huge, teachers have been cut and have taken pay cuts since 2008. It all sounds like someone elses problem to me. Increasing taxes on the rich and a tiny increase in sales tax is a waste. We all know that it probably all goes right in to the pockets of those union bosses.

3. gnerdalot Follow Befriend 1 comments

   3   8:18am Mon 29 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)   I have the idea it's the pensions. let pension payouts float with the market.

4. SFace Follow Befriend (2) 60 threads 1,297 comments Premium

   4   10:20am Mon 29 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (3)   Dislike   marcus says It all sounds like someone elses problem to me. Increasing taxes on the rich and a tiny increase in sales tax is a waste. We all know that it probably all goes right in to the pockets of those union bosses. Marcus, I really think the sentiment among voters is: 1) Schools do need more money but... 2) State Government needs meaningful reform first. Practically, #2 has to happen before #1 as a matter of how politics work. Whether the reasons are right or wrong or whether there is even a lot of excess waste, that is how prop 30 will likely lose regardless of how most people do support education. So from my perspective, it is a good tax, but the delivery is flawed.

5. SFace Follow Befriend (2) 60 threads 1,297 comments Premium

   5   10:51am Mon 29 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   Prop 38 has no chance of passing. In some sick way, prop 38 is a sneaky way to to help prop 30 lose by splitting some votes in a very close call situation. In the unlikely event both pass, the measure with the higher support cancels the other.

6. Honest Abe Follow Befriend (41) 91 threads 1,806 comments

   6   1:23pm Mon 29 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   Its easy to remember...nO on 30, they both end in 0, or is it O? And remember to save America, vote for the American!!

7. marcus Follow Befriend (5) 166 threads 5,053 comments

   7   11:07pm Mon 29 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)   Melmakian says Let me guess: You're a member of the CTA. Am I right? Yes, and UTLA too. But all teachers are in unions and that has little to do with the facts about current spending on education. By the way, some (including my district) claim that california is 47th in per student spending. I grabbed that 35th number from the first web site that gave numbers. Here are some details from my district which is often in opposition to the unions. http://budgetrealities.lausd.net/ http://budgetrealities.lausd.net/sites/default/files/082912%20A%20is%20for%20Alligator.pdf SFace says Marcus, I really think the sentiment among voters is: 1) Schools do need more money but... 2) State Government needs meaningful reform first. I don't understand this. Are you saying throw schools, students and teachers under the bus. Maybe do even worse, to get the public to force the govt to chsnge ? The government is guilty of spending beyond our means, but now the issue is primarily just that the economy hasn't come back enough (yet).

8. marcus Follow Befriend (5) 166 threads 5,053 comments

   8   11:14pm Mon 29 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)   Go here if you can't read details. http://budgetrealities.lausd.net/sites/default/files/082912%20A%20is%20for%20Alligator.pdf

9. Ceffer Follow Befriend 6 threads 642 comments Pleasanton, CA

   9   11:22pm Mon 29 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   I think the state already spent the 6 billion in glossy TV ads with adorable teachers and children. Not exactly what I see in the school districts that I see. Moonbeam is back on a tax and spend bender for the unions. I agree with one of the above posters, reform first tax later. And get that idiot controller off the air begging for taxes and put his nose into the waste, graft and corruptions which should be his 24/24 job.

10. SFace Follow Befriend (2) 60 threads 1,297 comments Premium

    10   4:26pm Tue 30 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   marcus says Face says Marcus, I really think the sentiment among voters is: 1) Schools do need more money but... 2) State Government needs meaningful reform first. I don't understand this. Are you saying throw schools, students and teachers under the bus. Maybe do even worse, to get the public to force the govt to chsnge ? The government is guilty of spending beyond our means, but now the issue is primarily just that the economy hasn't come back enough (yet). I don't see it as throwing schools under the bus. The budget was crafted to include what was not approved. If I recall, it was around 14% escalation. If voter's does not pass prop 30, then Brown and elected voting needs to figure it out and prioritize. For the long term health of the budget, transformative change needs to happen first. Transformative change are things like pension cap, increasing retiring age for existing employees more in line with SS and not stop spiking and future hires. In 2009, voters already said no and wanted transformative changes, things haven't change in three years, voters still want transformative changes that have been resisted. So my desire for change is more important than the impact of this year school chaos and uncertainty. Business "rightsize" in 6 months. In politics, changes are resisted until the end or until all leverage are gone. My desire for change means I have to vote for leverage. Brown wanted voter leverage by setting the budget and the language contained therein. I just can't support that no matter what. Let's just say you are in a PTA meeting and there are three things to buy: Tutor, supplemenal books and school statue. All the PTA passionately wanted books but you go ahead and fund the tutor and statue and say the only way to pay for the books is raising more money. That was Brown and Prop 30 in a nutshell

11. marcus Follow Befriend (5) 166 threads 5,053 comments

    11   7:07pm Tue 30 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   WE can probably agree people want the services, but don't want to pay for them. Melmakian says Because it is about RESULTS. When a business I patronize doesn't satisfy me as a customer, it loses my business. Whatever happens to the workers, suppliers for that business, etc. as a result is not my concern nor should it be. Okay, but how much of your dissatisfaction is based on reality, and how much is based on propaganda and what you would like to believe for selfish reasons ? Sure there are a lot of poor communities, where the schools aren't great, and where most of the student body doesn't want to be there (that is when they do attend). But as I've quoted many times before: The annual Gallup poll about education shows that Americans are overwhelmingly dissatisfied with the quality of the nation’s schools, but 77 percent of public school parents award their own child’s public school a grade of A or B, the highest level of approval since the question was first asked in 1985. http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/nov/11/myth-charter-schools/?pagination=false By the way, the author of that article used to work for GW Bush, and argued for charter schools, before turning 180 degrees as she became better informed. There's a lot of propaganda out there, and even many elite democrats buy it at this time. The fact is, inner city schools have always been bad in this country, but public schools in general and on average have always been pretty good. Very high percentages of students that go to most of the best of the best colleges and universities in this country come from public schools. This doesn't mean they don't need to improve a lot. But whether Califonia schools are 35th in per student spending or 47th, I don't see how you can say that the answer is spending less. Then again humans are selfish and relatively stupid creatures who often manage to believe what they want to believe. Tell me that you went to a public school and it would be the best argument you can make.

12. marcus Follow Befriend (5) 166 threads 5,053 comments

    12   7:08pm Tue 30 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   SFace says So my desire for change is more important than the impact of this year school chaos and uncertainty. Business "rightsize" in 6 months. In politics, changes are resisted until the end or until all leverage are gone. My desire for change means I have to vote for leverage. Can you be specific about this change you want ? Is prop 13 going to be undone ? Giving us fair property tax rates on businesses ?

13. marcus Follow Befriend (5) 166 threads 5,053 comments

    13   7:11pm Tue 30 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   SFace says Transformative change are things like pension cap, increasing retiring age for existing employees more in line with SS and not stop spiking and future hires. All thse are only about so called unfunded liabilities, not current defict problems or current underspending on education. I'm for pension reforms too. ALthough as I've argued ( I think with you) in the past, the pension spending is part of the compensation. It's understood (or was) that in certain careers the salary is lower, but the benefits are somewhat higher. MAybe this has a value of 10K per year, ABOVE THE AMOUNT THAT IS ALREADY TAKEN OUT OF TEACHERS SALARIES toward calstrs. It's just part of their compensation. This is not excessive, and saying it need to be lowered to SS levels smacks of envy. We live in an amazing time, where public workers are begrudged for their pensions they can have after working 30 years, but tax rates on the rich stay at their lowest level in many decades and may go lower. People are so short sighted and have no idea how this impacts the future.

14. SFace Follow Befriend (2) 60 threads 1,297 comments Premium

    14   2:49am Wed 31 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   marcus says Can you be specific about this change you want ? It's definitely deferred liability or better known as pension mystery. I have no idea why it is such as mystery. Up to this point, no one knows what that is, which is insane. If Microsoft discovered 500 Billion in deferred employee compensation, they would be sued by every stakeholder in the world as that means they understated compensation by an aggregate of 500B somewhere over a period of time based on simple matching principle. It is an easy excercise for any actuarial to perform. If the state of CA actually perform an actuarial like anyone would for a million dollar item, notwithstanding a 100 billion dollar line item. I can tell you what that is. Look, if in fact unfunded pension say 250B is built up over a period of 25 years, California under-reported their compensation expense by 10B a year. That's closer to 100% under-reported salary ballpark. Brown passed a measure that at best save 10B-20B over 30 years. That will not do as I am looking for something in the tune of 100B - 200B or reconcile 30-50% of the outstanding, not 5-10%. Of course, the deferred liability is still a mystery. marcus says I'm for pension reforms too. ALthough as I've argued ( I think with you) in the past, the pension spending is part of the compensation. It's understood (or was) that in certain careers the salary is lower, but the benefits are somewhat higher. MAybe this has a value of 10K per year, ABOVE THE AMOUNT THAT IS ALREADY TAKEN OUT OF TEACHERS SALARIES toward calstrs. It's just part of their compensation. This is not excessive, and saying it need to be lowered to SS levels smacks of envy. Read the above, unfunded liability in the tune of 250B means the state under-report their salary in the ten billion annual range which is far more significant than you suggest. For years, government get away with an expense line item that is not reality. It's comical. It's like you spent money on a credit card but not treated as an expense in the current year or have it reciognize as a balance due in the future. It's almost laughable why government accounting is even prepared as your biggest item is unaccounted for. In the SEC world, deferred items are 80% of auditing efforts. It's no mystery why private enterprise phased out pension, as the cost is uncertain and likely a disaster, that is considering much less generous pension than government pensions, much less the even more comical pensions promised to public safety. In all fairness, I have no issue with teacher's pension as a 50K pension is not that problamatic and requires lesser tweak. Heather Fong, our San Francisco police chief for 3 years but sargeant for other 27 or so, walked away at age 55 with a 250K pension with COLA. At 5% annuity for approximately 30 years, the present value at age 55 is around 4M+, that is problamatic. It's not an envy issue, accruing 500B in pension liability (or whatever mystery amount) was caused by goverment decisions over the past 20 or so years and they should be reconciled against government and "rightrsize" themselve first.