Watch9/11 was not funny. It was murder that led to more murder.
WE, the people, have been at war for more than a decade against an idea, terrorism. It is even more abstract than the still un-won war on drugs.
The real war is on liberty.
The implications of even believing the possibility of an inside job leads down a very chilling path of ideas. It would not hurt to have an independent investigation by an impartial non-government group.
Do you sense any dissonance between the government story, what you saw, and your understanding of how things work in the real world?
I started this new thread seeking the truth.
How did I ever become a truther?
A month ago I ran across ae911truth.org and found some evidence that the World Trade Center may have been destroyed by the jihadist AND internally placed explosives.
The implications are awful.
If true it means that someone, I don't know who, has betrayed our country and murdered thousands of civilians.
I don't want to be a truther. I want someone to convince me that there is a reasonable explanation for the evidence.
But they don't.
I look into the official documents and they have glaring inconsistencies and outright omissions.
I look into the kook sites and they have irrational explanations and ridiculous theories.
Murder has no statute of limitations. I believe there are grounds to open a new, independent, investigation into this horrible tragedy.
Please post links to evidence pro and con. Argue facts and evidence with me. Convince the professor that the official story was correct. Or help me spread the call for truth.
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David Losh says
Do you have an estimate of how many people would have to be directly involved with the theoretical WTC demolition?
I understand the implications of an "inside job", and it would have to involve people all the way at the top.
If the government was not involved, why was the investigation of 9/11 so flawed?
There are more questions than answers.
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There is no evidence. The only evidence that was obtained was from a wreckage it took years to clear.
What I find more compelling is that Bush ran off to attack Iraq rather than target Osama bin Laden in Afganistan.
Literally I think in the world of conspiracies you are looking at the smoke, and mirrors of the twin towers when the real conspiracy was Bush rushing the judgement of Iraqi involvement.
I think Bush, and his handling of the tradgedy, are much more the obvious target here.
You want the truth about the investigation being rushed? It was rushed so that Bush could move forward with a preconceived agenda.
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David Losh says
The official investigation was not rushed at all. It took years.
9/11 was the event that precipitated a decade of war on an abstraction called terrorism.
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You said flawed, and I said rushed.
You don't want to go down this conspiracy theory rabbit hole.
Bush was demanding answers that fit his larger agenda that had Iraq financing this act of terrorism.
That first year of investigation was seriously looking for a larger, organized group than just 19 people. We were running around the globe, torturing people, making them confess, and sending them to Gitmo, out of sight.
As hard as every one has tried, no big terrorist organization has been found.
We call it Al Quida, but what we find is armed militias.
No one wants to say that a group of no more than 24 guys, with $500K could do this much damage, at will, on American soil.
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Hollywood supports a new investigation
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David Losh says
Why not?
If there was a demolition of the wtc wouldn't you want an investigation?
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David Losh says
What do you mean "liquified"?
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The Professor says
Apologies for the technical difficulties. New to the auto-formatting on this site:
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Excellent Online Book!
"Within this book the author proves, in a way that can be cross-checked and verified by the reader, that none of these beliefs [official story] are correct."
http://www.sharpprintinginc.com/911/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=286&MMN_position=548:548
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Oh, alrighty, as long as you persist, yes the government is covering up a complete lack of care, or concern, about the real threats to the United States.
First let me says that architects, and engineers have this belief that they draw the specs, and that's the way things should be, well they aren't. Between the paper that the plans are drawn on, and the construction actual economics take place. Concrete gets watered down, steel of lesser quality is used. Everything may pass inspection, and code but this really looks like a very plausible wreckage.
As far as foundation liquification, the theory I would think be proposed is that the ground shook for an extended period of time, the soil below building seven became unstable, the piling system failed, and the building collapsed onto itself.
http://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/36526/32824988.pdf?sequence=1
In the world of conspiracies the World Trade Center is the last act of a plot that went on for decades, and was ignored by our arrogant government.
The arrogance of the United States government continued through our boots on the ground appraoch to kill Saddam Hussein, and the fact that we, like every other occupier, got run out of Afganistan by a bunch of militia men, and women.
You can not fight these people, but you can negotiate.
The same conspiracy is playing out today with Iran, Syria, and now Lebanon.
You have become another cog in the wheel of that conspiracy that is covering up the New World Order that we are losing.
Look over there at the Twin Towers, but don't look at Iraq, Iran, Libya, Tunisia, Egypt, or Syria.
It's all about oil, World War Two, Israel, and global economics.
Like I said you really don't want to go there, because it has to do with your individual freedoms, and a dream your government has that it can control the New World Order. Well, they can't.
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David Losh says
So you think the Towers fell from shoddy construction?
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Absolutely, without question, there was shoddy construction.
More than that, or covering that up, or getting the insurance companies to pay, the United States had an agenda to fulfill.
Osama bin Laden was our boy, the same as Mubarack, Gaddafi, and Saddam. These were the dictators George Bush Senior was talking about, and yet these were the guys doing our dirty work after World War Two, and the formation of Israel.
You don't want to go there, no one does, and we are now faced with the very real possibility a guy like Romney may be elected who will unravel everything that has been done to free the people of North Africa.
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"The bush administration were enablers of the operation. Some members definitely profited off the "war on terror"(see Dick Cheney) and some may have had small parts in it, but in no way were these people the 100% originators and minds behind the attacks."
http://www.dailypaul.com/259908/1-misconception-about-9-11-conspiracy-theories
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I have found some very compelling new evidence AGAINST the demolition of WTC.
I will have to investigate further.
Does anyone know about NMSR?
http://www.nmsr.org/nmsr911.htm
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This ties it all together
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Free markets, not free loaders.
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Honest Abe says
Are you in the right discussion?
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The Professor says
Why is nmsr911 information any more compelling than the hundreds of posts that said the exact same thing (many were the same articles) that you totally dismissed? ae911 vs nmsr911? I wonder if there is a relation? Are you setting up to get donations from both sides of the argument? Very slick work Rich. Follow the money.
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bob2356 says
Presentation. NMSR is pretty slick. A lot slicker than you.
I was really starting to believe nmsr's arguments until I listened to a debate between them and ae911.org. NMSR compared the plane hit and fires to the energy of an atomic bomb.
A kerosene fire has energy comparable to an atomic bomb?
There were too many coincidences on that dark day.
The government is not releasing a lot of info. There should be a new impartial investigation with subpeona power.
The important part of 9/11 is that it was used, and is still being used, as an excuse to wage war on an idea, TERROR.
We are in the age of perpetual war, omnipresent government surveillance, and public mind control, dictated by a political system euphemistically named democracy under the control of a privileged Inner Party elite that persecutes all individualism and independent thinking as thoughtcrimes.
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History tells you everything you need to know. You're focusing upon detailed specifics instaed of charactoristics of every major event in the last 100 years.
All the breakdowns are under the control and scope of the very same entity that increases both scope and control after the tragic event. The means or assistance and the end result are moot, because it's the inner circle of control that always comes out on top.
An overview; a total breakdown in security, murky security/events that mirror the tragic violence
scapegost is/was interconnected to the government itself in some way or form
strict resistance and control of, with an illogical outcome where blame can only be upon it's own neglect
government increases it's scope and control
WW2, JFK, Vietnam, Gulf War, 9/11, this goes on and on
Just as frequent as the murder of a married person's suspect is the spouse,
always look within first. Anything else is tail-chasing.
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More food for thought: One family has either financed, supported, helped maintain their power of, about every well known dictator/despot for close to 100 years.
From Hitler, to Saddam, Osama, Quadhaffi, Shaw of Iran, and numerous others. That same family seems to always be around or part of the group who take the aforementioned OUT of power.
And, there's another member of that family who is considered to be somewhat smarter, but far more sinister, just waiting in the shadows for the year 2016 to come around. Lookout Saudi Arabia, as their power has surpassed their usefulness.
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Interesting Paper
"Many Americans appeal to the admittedly complicated logistics of a planned operation to destroy
the towers with explosives as a means to avoid considering the evidence altogether. Arguments
from logistical complexity, however, do not serve to reconcile the evidence with official theory.
Indeed, these arguments offer no explanation of the collapses whatsoever. For many they serve
merely as psychological defense mechanisms, the essential purpose of which is to protect the
individual from having to confront the relevant evidence from the outset. Although government
complicity does not necessarily follow from the observations listed here, a detached evaluation of
the evidence simply cannot rule it out."
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/2010/Falsifiability.pdf
[
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"Dustification" interesting analysis.
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The Professor says
True. 9/11 was an excuse the government used to demolish even basic human and civil rights. The Bush administration didn't use explosives to bring down any buildings, but that administration did choose to ignore the threat -- Bid Laden Determined to Attack in the United States -- so that they could use the resulting tragedy for political gain. Dick Cheney got his Pearl Harbor, and all he had to do was nothing.
The Bush administration let 9/11 happen. They didn't participate in it. They just let it happen. And they would have done it again because letting 9/11 happen is why Bush got a second term and was able to implement all his evil policies. For Republicans, 9/11 is the best thing they could hope for and given a chance to prevent it, they wouldn't.
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Dan8267 says
That's pretty much how I see it - Occam's razor.
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Dan8267 says
And we have been at war with a concept for over a decade.
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mell says
yeah, I wouldn't put it past them "letting" it happen.
Not necessarily the whole suicide plane part, but the hijackings themselves, since in the past arab extremist hijackings were resolved without too much brouhaha, maybe a passenger or two killed, no biggie.
In this thesis, perhaps the "Truther" movement is counter-intelligence intended to 'poison the well' here about actual admin culpability.
Not that people aren't crazy enough to gin up this stuff on their own.
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http://newsone.com/742485/the-11-most-compelling-911-conspiracy-theories/
Why was our government so disinterested in finding the truth? Openness could eliminate most of these "Compelling" conspiracy stories.
Yet we go on from one crisis to another. Does anyone remember the anthrax attacks?
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Follow the money.
Sometimes I wish I never found out about the 9/11 conspiracy.
&feature=player_embedded
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The Professor says
I was thinking about this the other day. The FBI tortured Irvin into suicide by leaking all kinds of personal things that he did or wrote without charging him, but it was an entirely circumstantial case. They searched his house and effects countless times but never could match the time frame and batches he worked with with the samples from the letters. They had all the samples from the letters, samples from the labs, and abundant records, plus years to analyze them, but could never tie the batches he worked with nor any of his effects to the anthrax letters.
At one point they were going to write him off as a suspect but I believe political pressure "to find somebody, anybody", led them to simply harass Irvin constantly in hopes he would go nuts and have a meltdown, which would make him look guilty.
Remember Richard Jewell, the security guard at the Olympics? What happened to him reminds me of what happened to Irvin. The FBI and the newsmedia slandered his ass for months, leaked all kinds of personal shit, but he turned out to be 100% innocent; it was Eric Rudolph who did it (and, in fact, called in the bomb threat 10 minutes AFTER Jewell found the bag and notified the authorities) I believe he sued them and won.
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The Professor says
Yeah, the terrorist attacks that happened after 9/11 which give lie to the Republican talking point that "Bush kept us safe after September 11".
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finehoe says
Like Obama prevented a Depression and created Jobs.
Feed 'em beans and fuck 'em up the ass, American people will believe anything.
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CaptainShuddup says
Absolutely. They will even believe that both parties are the same when it comes to campaign finance reform. Stupid Americans.
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iwog says
That's you battle, I never count another man's money.
Ron Paul didn't need campaign dollars he needed campaign "RIGHTS".
But I guess in your world Money=Rights.
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Very interesting paper on the weakness and inconsistencies in the official NIST report of 9/11
http://www.nistreview.org/NCSTAR1-REVIEW-DOUGLAS.pdf
"This paper will conclude that the findings of the NIST investigation, although not necessarily incorrect, are
not inherently linked to the reality of the failure mechanisms that took place in WTC buildings 1 and 2.
The author calls on NIST to explain the discrepancies in its reports, admit the level of uncertainty in its
findings, broaden the scope of its investigation, and make its raw data available to other researchers."
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As open-minded as ever I see.
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I was finished with this thread but then I got drawn into that other thread.
Truthers can be so nutty. There are people out there that think a directed energy weapon destroyed the WTC and that there are airplanes emitting chemtrails to poison us.
I am not one of those truthers.
I just want to understand why our government rushed through on the cheap an investigation that concluded exactly what the news from the day of the event predicted, "The damage from the plane hit and then the weakening of the steel caused by the incredibly hot fire caused the buildings to fail".
I believed it for a decade. It made sense. Life went on in a new more dangerous world where we had to fight them in the caves of Afghanistan and give up some of our freedom in order to be safe.
Do you feel safe?
The investigation was flawed. Even some of the investigators admitted that they did not believe the results of the report. WTC7 was not hit by a plane and the official report claims that fire alone caused this skyscraper to fall.
All I hope to achieve from this thread is to inform more people of the controversy and make an attempt at debating the deniers.
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The Professor says
Can you provide the quotes?
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The Professor says
Debate the deniers? What on Earth does that mean? You and your ilk are the deniers. And you have already long ago drawn your conclusions. You always trot out this line about being open and interested in the debate, etc. etc. No, you aren't. Your posts show that to be a lie. You are a conspiracist. You are just trying to give yourself a bit of credibility, but you are clearly being disingenuous, so it actually gives you less.
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The Professor says
the implications for your thinking ability? yes, truly awful!
911 was brought down by space unicorns. the only real question, is, were the space ass monkeys in on it too?
THEY NEVER TESTED FOR UNICORN OR ASS MONKEY DNA!!!!!
Nobody saw the invisible space ass monkeys, doesn't nobody didn't know they weren't not there!!!!
Demand an investigation! secret CIA ifrared tape of the event clearly proves that OUR OWN GOVERNMENT WAS IN ON IT!!!!