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"I just want to own my own house."

By Patrick   Follow   Mon, 1 Oct 2012, 11:04am   3,771 views   48 comments
In Menlo Park CA 94025   Watch (1)   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (6)   Dislike (1)  

TRUE, most people do. There's nothing wrong with that. Buyers will get their chance when housing costs half as much and they have saved a fortune by renting. House ownership is great - unless you ruin your life paying for it. If you can save even just 10% on the price of a house, you can retire several years earlier than you would otherwise.

Great quote from http://healdsburgbubble.blogspot.com/: "People want to buy a house, they want to have someone tell them it is the smartest decision they are making in their lives, and they don't want to hear about any downside risk."

Housing is the biggest expense in nearly everyone's life, far more expensive than food, gas, energy, even more expensive than education or medicine. To reduce the time you spend working to pay for housing is to increase the time you have for everything else.

Cheap housing is good for us all! High housing costs take away from families' ability to save for retirement, fund their children's education, travel and lead a quality life.

How can we make lower house prices our official government policy? How can we completely eliminate the mortgage interest deduction which drives up housing costs and discriminates against renters? How can we wipe out Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, the FHA, and other agencies whose job it is to enslave Americans to mortgage debt?

As reader Sean Olender put it: "Many people have forgotten that the number one restriction on their future freedom to do what they want, when they want, and to go where they want isn't the Iraqis, or Iranians, or North Koreans -- it's their mortgage lender."

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1. FunTime Follow Befriend (3) 41 threads 835 comments San Francisco, CA

   9   3:41pm Mon 1 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   PockyClipsNow says In a democracy the majority are in control. How many million foreclosures and shortsales are we away? We've already dropped a huge amount from, what, 72 to 65%, or something like that? It seems pretty clear for the last two years that houses are being bought by institutions and investors, so the number of voters taking mortgages might still be dropping like a rock. What if we drop below 50%? Just a theory.

2. FunTime Follow Befriend (3) 41 threads 835 comments San Francisco, CA

   10   4:00pm Mon 1 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   http://www.census.gov/housing/hvs/files/qtr212/q212press.pdf

3. taxee Follow Befriend 88 threads 458 comments El Cerrito, CA Premium

   11   8:10am Wed 3 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Patrick says PockyClipsNow says Have you thought about the fact that in order to 'rent for half the cost' you are looking to be subsidized by the owner? And yet it works like that in expensive neighborhoods! Landlords subsidize tenants, because they are betting on appreciation. Nope. Most of the new owners, the 'fed', stole the purchasing power from the citizens by fiat, 'bought' the house with it, and will now rent it back to the befuddled previous 'owners'. Who's subsidizing who is a good question.

4. Zakrajshek Follow Befriend 67 comments Chico, CA

   12   8:15am Wed 3 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (3)   Dislike   One of the main things I don't like about "owning" is the constant threat of the nieghbors, and what irritating behavior they will do next: e.g. their screaming brats, barking dogs, blaring stereos, burping harleys, sex offenders, smokers, and on and on. If you rent you can complain or you can leave. Not so easy if you own. And if you own, at some point you will have a neighbor conflict.

5. FunTime Follow Befriend (3) 41 threads 835 comments San Francisco, CA

   13   8:52am Wed 3 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike   Zakrajshek says Not so easy if you own. And if you own, at some point you will have a neighbor conflict. I don't envy my neighbors who got into some kind of disagreement during one of their massive remodel/expansions to the sky and now won't talk to each other. Imagine crashing a million dollars plus into a place and living right butted up against, as we do in SF, people who you don't even want to see because of your anger. For years.

6. JG1 Follow Befriend 3 threads 243 comments Los Angeles, CA

   14   9:50am Wed 3 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike   Patrick says How can we make lower house prices our official government policy? How can we completely eliminate the mortgage interest deduction which drives up housing costs and discriminates against renters? How can we wipe out Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, the FHA, and other agencies whose job it is to enslave Americans to mortgage debt? As reader Sean Olender put it: "Many people have forgotten that the number one restriction on their future freedom to do what they want, when they want, and to go where they want isn't the Iraqis, or Iranians, or North Koreans -- it's their mortgage lender." Mortgage interest deduction arguably drives up housing cost, but also lowers it for those who can take advantage of the deduction. Blaming the banks because they provide a service lending money seems misplaced to me. Just like liquor stores, they only stay in business because their customers willingly come back for more. If you don't like banks, don't use them, but that doesn't mean they are screwing you over by offering to lend you money. If you don't like their terms, or debt in general, don't borrow. Making housing costs low shouldn't be government policy. That will just lead to manipulation and supporting deadbeats who can't pay their mortgage in the name of "affordable housing". Staying out of the way and not trying to manipulate housing costs up or down would be preferable and by definition economically efficient.

7. JG1 Follow Befriend 3 threads 243 comments Los Angeles, CA

   15   9:56am Wed 3 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Zakrajshek says One of the main things I don't like about "owning" is the constant threat of the nieghbors, and what irritating behavior they will do next: e.g. their screaming brats, barking dogs, blaring stereos, burping harleys, sex offenders, smokers, and on and on. If you rent you can complain or you can leave. Not so easy if you own. And if you own, at some point you will have a neighbor conflict. True, to a point, but everything you are concerning about, I would argue, is more prevalent in the average apartment complex than single family neighborhood. Take a look at the sex offender maps in a nice suburban neighborhood versus an area of all apartment buildings, even pricey apartment buildings. There's a reason why owners don't like too many renters around and point to the lack of them as a selling point. Also, you can pick up and move to another apartment or rental house, but the chances of running into another of these issues is great. I have problems like that in I think every apartment, and no house I have lived in. Being surrounded by owners, whether as a renter or an owner, is preferably, in my experience, although, as you point out, not a guarantee. Only a 100+ acre ranch guarantees peace and quiet, I suppose.

8. veruca Follow Befriend 2 comments

   16   9:57am Wed 3 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   Zakrajshek says One of the main things I don't like about "owning" is the constant threat of the nieghbors, and what irritating behavior they will do next: e.g. their screaming brats, barking dogs, blaring stereos, burping harleys, sex offenders, smokers, and on and on. If you rent you can complain or you can leave. Not so easy if you own. And if you own, at some point you will have a neighbor conflict. I looked at an open house this weekend; clearly a foreclosure, in Dublin. Smelled like dogs, filthy carpet, floorboards uneven in places, for 470,000. (1800 sq. ft. 4 BR) Backyard a cluster of five or six other backyards and you coul hear stereo blaring, interrupting the Sunday afternoon peace of at least five houses. That was exactly my thought; someone is going to pay this ridiculous price for this house and be stuck with these awful neighbors. More of that to come too, if investors keep buying up the homes and renting them out. You might be okay when you move in, but when new renters come and go you never know what you will get. That's pretty scary when you choose to overpay for a home and it might be difficult to get out.

9. investor90 Follow Befriend (3) 14 threads 232 comments Beverly Hills, CA

   17   11:05am Wed 3 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike   Zakrajshek says One of the main things I don't like about "owning" is the constant threat of the neighbors, and what irritating behavior they will do next: e.g. their screaming brats, barking dogs, blaring stereos, burping harleys, sex offenders, smokers, and on and on. Here is my solution. Move out of the city and its micro sized lots and mini sized houses. I found a little 3.5 acre plot with my own water well, septic system, natural gas and PV solar system 1/2 mile from the freeway. My "neighbors" consist of goats, chickens and old folks who are not allowed to develop the property into another Levittown. We protect each other against Realtard housing glut.....intruders watch out! The 30 acre parcel across the street can only be used for a few grass crops...now oats. NO neighbors...no problems. Only those who are handy with a saw and a hammer are comfortable living in a rural area. You either fix or build it yourself or do without. I trade my vegetables with neighbors who grow different crops. Ortganioc natural fruits and vegetables with free range chicken. More people should do this....I can see for MILES in most durections. NO Malls...no gas stations, or mini-marts! No riff raff...gangs or "diverse" population with their peculiar habits such as gang banging and theft. Lets keep that in the city with the Realtards. Block busting won't work here. Too bad for the realtor slimesters. I have my own police department with initials S&W. Our local judge is a farmer and he has a bias for people not city slickers with a habit of stealing and car jacking. Oh and the best part...there are NO buses, sidewalks or welfare benefits to attract the free loaders from the cities (welfare bums).

10. taxee Follow Befriend 88 threads 458 comments El Cerrito, CA Premium

    18   12:10pm Wed 3 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   I bought a nice place in the middle of an agricultural area in the 90's. Almonds, walnuts, prunes, pomegranates, just beautiful. Be prepared to get sprayed with strange chemicals by the neighbors and you might not want to drink the water. I sold it ten years latter when electric rates spiked and the orchard next door installed a 60 horse John Deer diesel water pump on their well near my house and ran it day and night, two weeks on then two weeks off. Made the house vibrate and I couldn't have a conversation in my front yard. Next time I will try for forty+ acres.

11. Patrick Follow Befriend (54) 5,240 threads 6,173 comments 46 male Menlo Park, CA Premium

    19   12:16pm Wed 3 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Sounds like it could have been really nice. I was about to suggest you try a non-agricultural area like far northern coastal CA, but then I remembered that it actually is a kind of agricultural area, though for a legal crop.

12. investor90 Follow Befriend (3) 14 threads 232 comments Beverly Hills, CA

    20   2:11pm Wed 3 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   taxee says I bought a nice place in the middle of an agricultural area in the 90's. Almonds, walnuts, prunes, pomegranates, just beautiful. Be prepared to get sprayed with strange chemicals by the neighbors and you might not want to drink the water. I sold it ten years latter when electric rates spiked and the orchard next door installed a 60 horse John Deer diesel water pump on their well near my house and ran it day and night, two weeks on then two weeks off. Made the house vibrate and I couldn't have a conversation in my front yard. Next time I will try for forty+ acres. Be persistent in your search. Our water well tested 100% NO pesticides or other poisons. WHY? Because the local farmers don't worship Monsanto, Cargil, ADM or Roundup salesmen. We have an electricity meter--actually two of them that run backward during the day. The net power use is negative for us. We actually net a small profit each year. We also have fruit trees which offer their own type of "air conditioning" to keep the house cool in the summer. During a power outage, we have our own Natural gas generator which makes very little noise at night. All of our lighting (interior and exterior) is via low power LEDS. Luckily for us the neighbors on each side of us also have solar PV panels. We rarely hear the Gas gensets during power outages. The other neighbors are so far away we couldn't hear a John Deer Diesel Generator if there were one. Oh and guess what...we see STARS at night....and have a nice view and soundscape of local animals....the noisiest seems to be a peacock ---weird bird call. But we have NO freeloaders...gangbangers...graffiti "artists", buses, sidewalks and hucksters. There are "REALTOR, RAPIST and COYOTE" KEEP OUT signs all around the area. My favorites are "Violators will be shot". You can hear automatic weapons fire at night...it is the sound of SAFETY. If any neighbor has a problem...within a minute you will be facing an army of adequately armed Americans who are pissed off. You don't want that especially ...if you are a killer, rapist, child molester, Realtor, bankster or other scum sucking bum. We all know whats up with these criminals. Yes we also have plums, peaches, cherries, walnuts and almonds. A neighbor is a commercial fisherman so if we need some Omega 3's in our diet we trade natural organic NON GMO, veggies and fruit for wild caught seafood. All of us need to go to the country...and stop supporting freeloaders and other bums (Realtards).

13. curious2 Follow Befriend (5) 32 threads 2,344 comments Premium

    21   2:21pm Wed 3 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   investor90 says The other neighbors are so far away we couldn't hear a John Deer Diesel Generator if there were one. This is in Beverly Hills? Wow! investor90 says we see STARS at night....and have a nice view and soundscape of local animals.... Well, that I can believe in Beverly Hills, but the animal sounds you're hearing might be the neighbors.

14. Raw Follow Befriend 10 threads 694 comments

    22   2:36pm Wed 3 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   curious2 says investor90 says The other neighbors are so far away we couldn't hear a John Deer Diesel Generator if there were one. This is in Beverly Hills? Wow! investor90 says we see STARS at night....and have a nice view and soundscape of local animals.... Well, that I can believe in Beverly Hills, but the animal sounds you're hearing might be the neighbors. Or because of what they are doing to the animals.

15. taxee Follow Befriend 88 threads 458 comments El Cerrito, CA Premium

    23   11:58pm Wed 3 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Patrick says Sounds like it could have been really nice. I was about to suggest you try a non-agricultural area like far northern coastal CA, but then I remembered that it actually is a kind of agricultural area, though for a legal crop. Patrick, you might be psychic. I've been shopping hard for a place in the coastal zone up around Mendocino. In an area out of the fog but cool enough to discourage growers. Made a backup offer on a place last month but the first offer got it. Prices are half what they were in 2006 but they are still high.

16. dodgerfanjohn Follow Befriend 19 threads 649 comments Los Angeles, CA

    24   8:54am Thu 4 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   Why is the Obama administration, and the Fed with the blessing of the Obama administration, actively working to prop up housing prices? Clearly, for most Americans, the best course of action would have been to let the banking industry imploded, along with housing prices. Let the dust settle, let a different financial industry take its place(one with proper federal level rules and regulations), and allow middle and upper middle class people to buy houses with mostly cash purchases rather than mortgages. But that didn't happen. Instead the middle class of America was given the big middle finger while their tax dollars went to keeping the current financial industry largely intact. Why does Obama use rising home prices as a sign of "good" in the debates last night?

17. dublin hillz Follow Befriend 13 threads 834 comments Dublin, CA

    25   9:23am Thu 4 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (3)   Dislike   dodgerfanjohn says Why does Obama use rising home prices as a sign of "good" in the debates last night? Because for whatever irrational reason, citizens like to feel the "wealth effect" - they tend to spend more money to "stimulate the economy" when their stock portfolios are up and when their house values are up. Even though this way of thinking are irrational - the "wealth affect" can really only apply to gamblers - like someone buying a new TV while they are up and still playing at the blackjack table. A true disciplined stock investor or a home owner will never fall for the wealth affect bullshit.

18. drew_eckhardt Follow Befriend (1) 2 threads 344 comments Sunnyvale, CA

    26   9:31am Thu 4 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (3)   Dislike   dodgerfanjohn says Why is the Obama administration, and the Fed with the blessing of the Obama administration, actively working to prop up housing prices? To maximize loan origination fees for the banking industry and prop up the value of mortgage backed securities. But that didn't happen. Instead the middle class of America was given the big middle finger while their tax dollars went to keeping the current financial industry largely intact. The middle class of America are generally _NOT_ members of the 0.4% who make campaign donations big enough to report.

19. AlexS Follow Befriend (1) 1 threads 284 comments

    27   9:54am Thu 4 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (1)   In this country it is impossible to "own" a house, for as long as there are serfdom aka "property" tax and assessments. This whole baloney about owning your home is a fiction, and a lie.

20. robertoaribas Follow Befriend (23) 56 threads 4,081 comments Scottsdale, AZ robertoaribas's website

    28   10:20am Thu 4 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   AlexS says In this country it is impossible to "own" a house, for as long as there are serfdom aka "property" tax and assessments. This whole baloney about owning your home is a fiction, and a lie. you never own your car either, since you can't drive it without paying state fees... better give it away now!

21. FunTime Follow Befriend (3) 41 threads 835 comments San Francisco, CA

    29   10:25am Thu 4 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   dodgerfanjohn says Why does Obama use rising home prices as a sign of "good" in the debates last night? 65.5% of households say they "own" their home, if I interpret the government stats on "homeownership" correctly. I can't find an exact definition. http://www.census.gov/housing/hvs/files/qtr212/q212press.pdf The reason those people want to hear their house price is going up is that they spent all their money on it and it's too crushing to think all their money is gone.

22. AlexS Follow Befriend (1) 1 threads 284 comments

    30   10:30am Thu 4 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   robertoaribas says AlexS says In this country it is impossible to "own" a house, for as long as there are serfdom aka "property" tax and assessments. This whole baloney about owning your home is a fiction, and a lie. you never own your car either, since you can't drive it without paying state fees... better give it away now! not a good comparison, not even close to a good comparison. Compare the mobility (I can move my car out of state) and cost of serfdom tax vs. annual tag renewal.

23. freak80 Follow Befriend (4) 52 threads 4,416 comments Corning, NY Premium

    31   10:37am Thu 4 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   robertoaribas says you never own your car either, since you can't drive it without paying state fees... Very true. robertoaribas says better give it away now! That does not follow.

24. robertoaribas Follow Befriend (23) 56 threads 4,081 comments Scottsdale, AZ robertoaribas's website

    32   10:41am Thu 4 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   AlexS says (I can move my car out of state) and then, you have to pay even more state fees... some states charge you to bring it in, then charge you again to drive it on the roads... Nope, you can't own your car... safer to just buy a monthly bus pass or ride a bicycle like i do! woo hoo! zero fees!!!!

25. Patrick Follow Befriend (54) 5,240 threads 6,173 comments 46 male Menlo Park, CA Premium

    33   11:04am Thu 4 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   robertoaribas says or ride a bicycle like i do! woo hoo! zero fees!!!! Yes! Some great reasons to bike: 1. Zero licensing or registration. 2. It's good exercise. 3. It's cheap. 4. It's good for the environment. 5. It's fun. But it doesn't make any money for the car + oil wars + obesity interests, so I suppose we souldn't bike, just to be nice to them.

26. freak80 Follow Befriend (4) 52 threads 4,416 comments Corning, NY Premium

    34   11:41am Thu 4 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Patrick says But it doesn't make any money for the car + oil wars + obesity interests, so I suppose we souldn't bike, just to be nice to them. Ever ridden a bike in 20 degree weather with snow? Or in 95 degree weather with high humidity? Biking is great in coastal CA...not so much elsewhere. :-)

27. robertoaribas Follow Befriend (23) 56 threads 4,081 comments Scottsdale, AZ robertoaribas's website

    35   12:24pm Thu 4 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   freak80 says Ever ridden a bike in 20 degree weather with snow? Yep, I threw a paper route as a kid, on my bike in the midwest...rode through snow... you can ride through a couple inches, I won't say its easy, but it can be done!

28. Call it Crazy Follow Befriend 249 threads 2,915 comments

    36   12:28pm Thu 4 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)   robertoaribas says freak80 says Ever ridden a bike in 20 degree weather with snow? Yep, I threw a paper route as a kid, on my bike in the midwest...rode through snow... you can ride through a couple inches, I won't say its easy, but it can be done! Are you kidding, that's the BEST time to ride when it's snowing!! Ever try it on a motorcycle??? That's when it gets real interesting!!

29. Goran_K Follow Befriend (4) 26 threads 1,566 comments Laguna Beach, CA Premium

    37   12:36pm Thu 4 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Yeah, I bet it gets even more interesting if you don't wear a helmet, and stand on your seat while the bike is in motion.

30. Patrick Follow Befriend (54) 5,240 threads 6,173 comments 46 male Menlo Park, CA Premium

    38   12:43pm Thu 4 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   freak80 says Ever ridden a bike in 20 degree weather with snow? 20? Ha! I'm from Chicago originally, and 20 is not that cold. But I admit if the snow gets too deep, then it just doesn't work.

31. Call it Crazy Follow Befriend 249 threads 2,915 comments

    39   1:05pm Thu 4 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)   Goran_K says Yeah, I bet it gets even more interesting if you don't wear a helmet, and stand on your seat while the bike is in motion. Were you peaking???? Patrick says 20? Ha! I'm from Chicago originally, and 20 is not that cold. But I admit if the snow gets too deep, then it just doesn't work. 20 is just a walk in the park.... The one plus to riding when the snow is deep, it doesn't hurt so much when you crash!!!

32. freak80 Follow Befriend (4) 52 threads 4,416 comments Corning, NY Premium

    40   1:54pm Thu 4 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   I have seen guys riding bicycles in snow, but I assume it's because of a DUI.

33. Call it Crazy Follow Befriend 249 threads 2,915 comments

    41   3:01pm Thu 4 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (1)   freak80 says I have seen guys riding bicycles in snow, but I assume it's because of a DUI. That, or being an illegal immigrant....

34. zzyzzx Follow Befriend (9) 436 threads 4,261 comments Baltimore, MD

    42   11:27am Fri 5 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)   robertoaribas says Yep, I threw a paper route as a kid, on my bike in the midwest...rode through snow... you can ride through a couple inches, I won't say its easy, but it can be done! Riding in snow is doable, it's the compacted ice that get you. Then your water bottle freezes.

35. freak80 Follow Befriend (4) 52 threads 4,416 comments Corning, NY Premium

    43   11:34am Fri 5 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   zzyzzx says Riding in snow is doable, it's the compacted ice that get you. Definitely. That brown slushy mix isn't fun either, at least when driving a car.

36. Patrick Follow Befriend (54) 5,240 threads 6,173 comments 46 male Menlo Park, CA Premium

    44   11:38am Fri 5 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   What Chicago needs is a set of well protected bike lanes which can safely be used with cross-country skis in the winter! You can really move on cross-country skis once you get the rhythm down, and if the lanes were completely separate from cars and trucks then they wouldn't get filled with that brown slushy stuff. But I suppose that doesn't help the powers that be either, so it's not likely to happen until we finally get real democracy via publicly funded campaigns.

37. freak80 Follow Befriend (4) 52 threads 4,416 comments Corning, NY Premium

    45   11:44am Fri 5 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Patrick says What Chicago needs is a set of well protected bike lanes which can safely be used with cross-country skis in the winter! Sounds like a neat idea. But wouldn't the snow get packed down into ice with so much ski-traffic? I really don't know since I'm not a skier. But at least Chicago is perfectly flat, so there's no "uphill" skiing.

38. Patrick Follow Befriend (54) 5,240 threads 6,173 comments 46 male Menlo Park, CA Premium

    46   11:47am Fri 5 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   freak80 says But at least Chicago is perfectly flat, so there's no "uphill" skiing. I always got a kick out of suburb names in Chicago, like "Hickory Hills", which had no hickories, and no hills.

39. freak80 Follow Befriend (4) 52 threads 4,416 comments Corning, NY Premium

    47   11:52am Fri 5 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   Patrick says I always got a kick out of suburb names in Chicago, like "Hickory Hills", which had no hickories, and no hills. But there are "forest preserves" instead of parks. :-)

40. Call it Crazy Follow Befriend 249 threads 2,915 comments

    48   12:34pm Fri 5 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (1)   zzyzzx says Then your water bottle freezes. That's because your not putting enough vodka in it!! :)

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