WatchA while ago I made an interesting discussion like 6 months back I made a discussion called "Are Cars An Overpriced Technology?"
http://www.patrick.net/forum/?p=1211139&c=815786
I had some people disagree but I had a lot of people agree.
I feel like the used/new car market has a lot of similarities to the used/new housing & construction market when it comes to the today's economic policies, bubble inflation, financing irresponsibility from creditors, market manipulation & faulty damaging government intervention.
Cash for clunkers was a program to destroy perfectly good condition used cars that were usable for many many more miles.
Why? To essentially benefit car companies selling new model cars by preventing the prices of new automobiles from crashing & essentially to prevent downturn in the major car companies' revenues of business.
It has also propped up used car prices very high with low inventory since end of 2008- 2009.
Very similar thing has happened to the housing market since end of 2008-2009. An initial crash was coming & everybody knew from the starting phases that it was going get very very very UGLY.
So what happened? Programs were introduced to stop the crash but only at the corporate sector in the housing market & automobile market but also at the debt holding enslaved serfs who took out irresponsible mortgages & car loans on overpriced rapidly depreciating assets.
Cars today are sold with the very cheap substandard materials unless you are one of the idiots that buys a car for $60,000 - $350,000 dollars.
Anything below $60,000 that is relatively new is made from cheap substandard quality materials. A c-class mercedes these days are made in china with substandard materials you would find acceptable for a Toyota, Hyundia, Kia or a very inexpensive V-4 economy car.
The leather seats in some mercedes models don't even come standard! Wtf?
These days the car companies and housing market industry is doing the exact same business and production policies. They are nickel & diming the shit out of you for the same stuff they made in the past except it is much much more overpriced with less production costs along with cheaper quality substandard materials... Making the product completely disposable & unrepairable or very unreliable within a matter of 5-10 years the best.
Most new homes today are built with cheap shit materials that will not last without demolition necessary or vey expensive repairs after the first owner.
Even in the semi-high end housing market of new homes, the McMansions which mostly dumb spendaholic yuppies live in are made from very substandard materials compared to modest homes in the past.
Just like the semi-high end mercedes that are made with substandard materials from their past predecessors. No standard leather seats? And their productions costs are lower than in the past. What a joke.
I also notice how in car commercials they rarely ever give you a list price to buy outright. They give you a monthly lease plan similar to paying a mortgage.
How much a month? Is what yuppie spendaholic idiots ask!
The technology for better mpg & free alternative energy is there but it is being kept in the shadows due to big money interests from very big powerful corporations.
I predict there will a cash for dumps program & excess housing inventory will be demolished.
This entire economy along with it's housing market, automobile market, gas prices, employment, college education policies & so many other sectors is a big fucking laughing joke yet dumb fucking Americans are too blind to see it.
I have found this blind ignorance to be even more pronounced in the $100k-500k salary crowd. This group is one of the most arrogant & ignorantly so dumb that they don't have the intelligence to know how stupid they are. These people falsely believe themselves to even be highly intelligent, aware & above the economic troubles.
Yuppies basically. Not rich but not poor but also not middle class. This crowd are mostly doctors, lawyers, accountants, CPAs, Professors, High-level corporate managers, Brokers, IT Tech... Even school teachers are no longer the same. Even police officers nowadays...
They tend to be the worst of the lot. (Not all but most) Why you ask? Because the majority I have found through exprience try to associate themselves to be untouchable aristocrats who are above the individuals with a salary below $100k.
They assume that their salaries are intrinsically earned in terms of actual value. Thus come towards a false self-delusion of inflated self-worth, importance, arrogance & began to believe anyone below them In terms of salary, artificially manipulated social class & a worthless paper stating the level of "education" (indoctrination of mostly false misinformation or worthless inapplicable theory.) to be inferior to them within actual intrinsic value.
They come to extreme self-delusions that every poor person is there because of their fault. Which is very much false and misguided. I believe personal responsibility has a place but these types of people I have found tend to take it across the board and believe they are personally responsible for their earnings.
They have this air of arrogance of belonging to an aristocracy group because of a self-delusion of actual merit & value to society.
These people couldn't be any more stupid. Everything they are & have is because of manipulation done in part by individuls who can print money itself. But I don't gang up nor do I attack bankers because they are honest to themselves that they are criminal elite scums.
But yuppies? They are the most foolish self-worshiping idiots. Unknown to them, their salaries are artificially high due to manipulation from up top & what they mostly do for a living is not honest nor valuable to society at large... Only to the bankers who are the true and only real aristocracy.
They real and true artistocracy don't self-delude themselves into believing they provide value to society. They are honest to themselves. But yuppies with their leased European cars, McMansions, IPhones, IPads, MacBooks & worthless gimmick designer items? They are just dumb idiots who are nothing but pawns of the elite criminal scum who will eventually join up ranks with the very peasants they despise so much & look down on in arrogance.
Sorry if I got off topic, but this mindset has a lot to do with the problems in the housing market & general economy along the other sectors like the car industry
Seriously, I'm getting too old mentally. And when you become older mentally, you began to connect things which are so blatantly obvious on how the world really works & why things are the way they are along with why people behave & act the way they do.
So I guess it's time to invent my first quote...
"I have learned in life that like energy, wealth is never ever created nor destroyed despite people's self-delusion but rather it is merely transferred from one party to the next. A self-proclaimed wealth creator or destroyer is a shameless liar to himself and others. A self-proclaimed wealth transferror is the most honest of respectable men to himself and others."
-Robber Baron Elite Scum
Anyway, what is your guys take on this subjects matter of the housing market, car industry similarities & yuppies?
Is a cash for dumps program coming in the housing/construction industry?
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Fontana, CA
I believe the NEW car market is fairly priced. A lot of the cost is the ever increasing safety demands AASHTO places. That's not a bad thing, in my opinion, as demonstrated by the following videos:
That's why a Geely in China, or a Tata in India costs 1/4 the price of my new Honda here in America.
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Now the USED market is a different story. We still haven't recovered from Cash for Clunkers. Add in the horrible sales figures of new cars since '08, and you can see the used market really bubbling.
It got so bad last summer, I decided against a used car, and bought new. The used Hondas were only depreciating $600 a year. In some cases, other buyers traded in the 1-2 year old models for FULL PRICE. That insanity is over now, but the used prices are still too high.
Cash for Clunkers subsidized upper-income buyers to purchase shiny new Priuses at the cost of lower-income drivers who have to scuttle around in the old Crown Vics to get to work. Now that the old SUVs and full-size cars are all crushed, these lower-income drivers have to fight the rest of us for the used Camrys with 250,000 miles on them. That's driven up the price.
Case in point: I bought a '95 Subaru Legacy for $1800 in '07. I put 75k miles on it, driving it to 225k. I sold it for $1200 last fall, and if I hadn't been in a hurry, I'm confident I could've gotten $1800 out of it.
Bought a '99 Subaru Outback for $6400 in '08. I could easily sell it for over $5000 today.
Used cars should be depreciating faster than this. They aren't. And Obama's C4C progam certainly shares some of the blame. This is a regressive "tax" on the poor, in my opinion.
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El Cerrito, CA
You are right about the cars. Used cars should be lowr but like the entire economy it is no doubt manipulated. That is why if you can buy a house cheaper than a car you can't go wrong. Even if things take another BIG tank it still can produce cash flow if you get it cheap enough. Like that condo for $26500 or even a house i under $125k.
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Los Angeles, CA
mike2 says
Easy, now . . . for $800 I can buy an '85 Civic and deliver pizzas and drugs for 2833% GMROI.
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El Cerrito, CA
Now that is a GREAT return on Pizza!
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San Jose, CA
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mike2 says
Those profits ain't from the pizza
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JodyChunder says
Repairing a car takes something many car owners no longer have - private space. For apartment dwellers maintenance over rotating one's tires isn't much of an option, especially if the repair is projected to take more than a few hours. The bright side is that cars tend not to break nearly as often as they used to. Working on cars CAN be fun but never on the shoulder of a road, and yes I speak from experience.
To the added complexity there is a simple solution. Buy the cheapest model. Sure you'll likely still get power windows, locks, steering (even on a subcompact), etc. Oh the horror!
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New Renter says
Hey, complexity is fine-- if a design is complex but elegant, then there's nothing not to like. I'm talking about overly fussy automated razzle dazzle BS that doesn't elevate the machine in any way other than from a marketing standpoint.
As for maintenance -- hell, you can't even rotate the tires on some cars, as the front tires are different than the rear. That's what bugs me. I was maybe only ever a shade tree mechanic, but working on my cars was more than just an excuse to escape my insane wife -- it was a path to self-discovery; I discovered my innate love of machines and mechanical design in general -- especially automobiles. What I also discovered was that I could think through other unrelated problems better when I was in the middle of swapping out a foul plug or rebuilding a carburetor on the kitchen table and working my way through a sixer (Ballantine, please).
By the way -- if your buggy takes a shit on you on the side of the road in the middle of the West Texas desert, it's good to be able to pop the hood and at least have the option of troubleshooting while you wait the four hours for AAA in 112 degree heat.
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rfsanders says
I really don't think so -- especially not in light of the ongoing bloodletting of the UAW union and the largely diminished overall compensation of new hires.
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william12345 says
The squareheads always knew how to make great stuff.
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JodyChunder says
Then why do their cars always break? Stupid and expensive stuff too, like disintegrating electrical insulation and door seals, distributors that cost $600 and the POS of course takes two, turbos that fail every 18 months or so for $1500 a pop (1985 dollars), etc.
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JodyChunder says
You want to talk about over-the-top fully automated razzle dazzle? Remember the fully digital dashboard craze of yesteryear?
Nissan 300zx:
Cadillac Allante:
And of course the early 80's Trans Am - talk about marketing hype:
(David Hasselhoff not included)
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Los Angeles, CA
JodyChunder says
I love my 32 year old car (free insurance; no payments). Changing your own oil is a liberating milestone and moment of zen. My perfect Sunday afternoon is a highball, staring into the cloudless sky, and waiting for the final wisps of spent 10W30 to collude into the recycling pan. There are some moments not even poetry can capture. You can make mine Glenlivet, thank you.
JodyChunder says
I recall years ago throwing a fan belt on I-10 in the middle of a Louisiana summer. I had a replacement belt in the trunk and the tire iron doubled as a tensioner tool. We didn't have cell phones back then, so AAA wouldn'na done me a lick of good anyway.
New Renter says
Ahhh, the days when tuxedos, male perms, and sports cars all lived in peace and harmony.
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Fort Lauderdale, FL
JodyChunder says
I have a 2001 Jaguar XKR. When it's in the shop they give me a new Jaguar XF. I can't wait to get back into my XKR. It's superior in every way.
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Madison, WI
New cars do suck. I just ran into my neighbors old grand prix with my new Camry, her car is missing a little paint and no dent, and does not even care about getting it repaired where my car is contributing $1800 towards the fender bender service repair industry. The shell of the car is basically tin, see less weight increases fuel mileage. The shocks on this near new car are already going bad, where I've had older cars with shocks that lasted twenty years. Yeah I've had some crappy old General Motors cars but my tech 4 GM motor with a carbuerator was great and so was my Ford escort with a throttle body and the one fuel injector, gutless great old fuel mileage. Where did I go wrong?, the 5th generation Toyota Camry's have more American made sourced parts and labor in it than anything else except a ford truck.
I totally agree, you can't find a car stripped down without all this power everything crap, talk about wasting fuel mileage, all the copper electronics is weighing my car down, I'm really amazed at the dry weight of new cars, they have not lightened up much at all.
Yes our houses are junk, in many other countries they make them out of concrete. If you find one here made out of concrete it was only because it was likely put together during the cold war when someone was building bomb shelter style. Some foreigners I meet think it's a joke how we pay these exorbitant property taxes on basically a pile of wood, rubber, and plastic.
The joe schmo mechanic repair shops are going out of business, it's cheaper to just buy a newer / used car because they are building many of them better due to competition.
But, look at the cheap modular house you can buy today!, such cheap junk, apartments they build, the fixtures are throw away, they cost like 5 bucks, you build a yuppy house and want a nice walk in tiled shower, that's running you up to 10 grand!, no wonder people opt for the plastic shower enclosure which works equally well if not better.
I see homes demolished all the time, especially now where people buy and cannot afford to maintain because the bankers, taxers and you have to eat and drive that car before any maintenance is ever done on either car or house!
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Philistine says
I had an old car that used a filter with a replaceable element. Changing the oil in it SUCKED! I can't tell you how many times I ended up with oil soaked throughout my hair. And don't get me started on changing the gear oil. You know gear oil used to contain sperm whale oil right?
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New Renter says
That's magical stuff. As I understand it, Nasa still used a really refined version of it up until a few years ago. How they procured it...?
everything says
One of my best cars was a 1955 Ford Thunderbird with a 292 Y-block, Un-killable. The Saudis loved the the Tri-five Fords, too. They could take the punishing elements of the desert better than any other full-size sedan of the day. Safe? NO!
New Renter says
They're not so hot today, I agree. I was thinking more to the old Volks and the old Porsches.
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Los Angeles, CA
I disagree with the claim that Cash for Clunkers had a lasting effect on used car prices, at least not in Los Angeles.
Sure, there are a few "hot models" that retain high resale value. And there are hordes of people who will gladly buy your few years old car in perfect shape, oh and they have $1500-2500 they will pay. Between these extremes I see a huge "donut hole" of decent used cars that they can't seem to sell, and used car lots along with new dealers closing and remaining vacant.
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Roslyn, NY
APOCALYPSEFUCK is Shostakovich says
Any of your participation in my threads is an honor to me.
An ApocalypseFuck commentary in any thread is a badge of honor given by ApocalypseFuck to the discussion OP & the subject.
That said: DIE YUPPIES & REALTOR®'s DIE!
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Fort Lauderdale, FL
New Renter says
So did Preparation-H. Women would use it on their wrinkles.
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El Cerrito, CA
That is a good one. I did know that on both of them.
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Fort Lauderdale, FL
Robber Baron Elite Scum says
When you use the ® sign you are honoring their unrightful ownership of the name. Realtor is now a generic term. Also the Association obtained the REALTOR mark by appropriating a common word that appeared in a Sinclair Lewis book.
Unless you mean that real estate agents are OK but become skum when they're forced to join the Association of Reators so they can access the MLS, you shouldn't use the trademark sign.
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Roslyn, NY
ELC says
Troll someone else...
You are not the lieutenant & chief in charge to dictate... You're a serf & peasant.
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Fort Lauderdale, FL
Robber Baron Elite Scum says
You're scared of NAR. Or maybe even a spy. ®®®®®®®®®®®®®
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ELC says
And NASA STILL uses it for lubricating spacecraft. No doubt its a great lubricant. Bio compatible as well.
Saaaay that gives me an idea...
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Fort Lauderdale, FL
New Renter says
I loved my Cadillac allante but it was in the shop once a month. Once the warranty expired I sold it.
but it was way ahead of its time technologically
And the body was made by Ferrari so I would have to wait for certain parts to be ordered from Italy.
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ELC says
Sounds like most European luxury cars - then and now.
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New Renter says
I thought because it was a Cadillac it would be reliable. I bought it used and it had 9 things wrong that were all covered under warranty. Since I brought it in claiming all 9 repairs at once Cadillac disallowed all of them saying I was trying to refurbish the car on their nickel. I went to BBB arbitration which was a joke. They flew THREE fat cat executives all the way from Detriot to Florida just to fight me. And even though they had no defense because all the items were individually covered the BBB still ruled in favor of them. It was a total kangaroo court. The judge was like 90 years old and senile. Ultimately I got everything fixed. All I had to do was claim a few things wrong each time so the dealer wasn't required to call the corporate office.
What a bunch of schmucks they were, both the BBB and Cadillac. It cost GM all that money and hotel bills to fly out three corporate pricks, and also instead of paying for my rental car once while it was being repaired they had to pay for it three times.
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Roslyn, NY
ELC says
The ® mark is a form of mockery not endearment on this forum, you clueless dirty noob.
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Fort Lauderdale, FL
Robber Baron Elite Scum says
Yea sure you're going to copy and paste the trademark just to mock them. Yer yella!
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ELC says
That was your first mistake. Cadillac wasn't exactly known for making quality products throughout the 70'sand 80's. Remember its V8-6-4 engine? How about the '82 Cimarron? 1980 Seville?
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Roslyn, NY
ELC says
Alt + r on your keyboard will automatically type ®. Computer illiterate peasants these days...
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Fort Lauderdale, FL
Robber Baron Elite Scum says
Doesn't work on my HP laptop. Alt + 0174 works. Did you buy your computer at the dollar store?
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Fort Lauderdale, FL
New Renter says
This one was a '92. I didn't sell it come to think of it. I traded it in for a 1995 Dodge Viper of all things. The Viper was a fiasco too. I ended up successfully lemon lawing it and bought the 1998 C5 Corvette Convertible which was a great car that I kept for many years. I also bought the 1998 Convertible Jaguar XK8 soon after and installed a 100hp nitrous kit in it. My fiance' fell in love with the Vette and commandeered it, and I wound up prefering the Jaguar even though she was the one that wanted the Jag. That year the Jag had an awesome Harmon Kardon sound system and with the nitrous was faster than the Vette yet more luxurious.
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ELC says
So you'd recommend a Jag? They didn't have a very good reputation either during the Ford years. That hasn't stopped me from coveting a nice used XK or XJR though.
Sorry to hear about the Viper.
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ELC says
My father had lots of similar problems with the BBB. He was convinced they were nothing more than a joke as far as the consumer was concerned.
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Fort Lauderdale, FL
New Renter says
The consumer is not the one who is paying them. It's the businesses. It's a total conflict of interest. When looking up a business it's useless to look at the rating or closed complaints. You need to look at all the complaints closed or not then try to figure out if a business of that size should have that many complaints.
They also serve as a line of defense for the businesses. Often people complain to BBB rather than the Authorities. Since they complained to someone they feel vindicated. Much like a spammer will include a link that says, "report this email as spam." People often don't realize all they're complaining to is the spammer.
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Fort Lauderdale, FL
New Renter says
After I sold the Vette and the XK8 I bought a 2001 XKR used and a 2008 S-Type new. The S-Type has had hardly any repairs in the past 4 years. I thankfully bought a good extended warranty for the XKR. The dollar cost of repairs after 3 years 36,000 miles for the XKR was a whopping $29,000! That was more than I paid for the car and warranty combined. I recently renewed the warranty for another two years and for the past year it's been perfect, knock wood. I'll probably go for a newer model Viper again after the XKR warranty expires. I really miss the rawness of it and the setting off of car alarms. :) At least the new ones have windows and roofs that open automatically and doors that you don't have to reach inside to open.
Although I didn't have much trouble with the XK8 even though I abused the hell out of it with the nitrous, the XKR has been like having a very beautiful yet sick high maintenance woman. It's just barely worth it.
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What went wrong with the XKR?
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Fort Lauderdale, FL
New Renter says
It was seven years old with only 7000 miles when I bought it. Which means most of the time it was sitting idle. I found out that's hard on a car. So everything rubber went bad. Bushings hoses, etc. Then the sensors. The GPS screen. The seat motor. The hydraulics on the convertible roof. Head gasket. The water pump, alternator, supercharger and transmission. Since everything that can go wrong did go wrong it's been pretty reliable lately.
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ELC says
Sounds like the rubber itself was subpar. I've heard of BMWs where the door seals failed multiple times.
Sometimes you just get less when you pay more :(