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Ronald Reagan a great Conservative.
By HEY YOU Follow Sun, 19 Aug 2012, 11:57am 640 views 12 comments
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Good history lesson here.
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Two things to keep in mind. First is that the Democrat and Republican parties switched roles in the 1960s. The second is that Harry Truman was an evil, despicable excuse for a man.
Harry Truman murdered between 150,000 and 215,000 men, women, and children, civilians when he used atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. About as many would later die from radiation poisoning. To forgive Truman is like forgiving Osama bin Laden for 9/11 100 times over.
Truman's act, motivated entirely by political maneuvering, killed literally 100 times as many people as 9/11, 83% of which were civilians.
If there were ever a cause for hell to exist, the two humans in history who would most merit being occupants would be Adolph Hitler and Harry Truman.
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Really Dan, Hitler and TRUMAN?
Take a look at this list of atrocities just in the last century alone. Even if what you say is true where would Truman be on that list?
http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dictat.html
You may believe that Japan would have surrendered peacefully if we had just blockaded the island. Perhaps so but when? How many people would have starved to death before the very strong willed Japanese would have finally capitulated to the inevitability of their defeat? An invasion would likely have ended the war sooner than a blockade but would have resulted in many more deaths on both sides.
Today its easy to criticize Truman for that decision especially as our relations with Japan have changed. Truman would likely have been doubly damned by you had he decided to go the blockade route and killed just as many or more civilians through starvation and triple damned had he ordered the invasion potentially killing many hundreds of thousands of Allied forces, Japanese military and civilians.
So Dan, if you had been the commander in chief, with the same information available to Truman at the time what would YOU have done?
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New renter says
I would have listen to the generals telling me not to drop the bomb. I would have blockaded Japan rather than slaughtering children. Even in war, there are ethics.
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Dan8267 says
No I'm sorry to say there are not - at least not against an enemy who has committed itself to total war:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/total+war
The Japanese were brutal in every single theater they entered. They had no regard for the "sub-human" non-Japanese whether they be old, infirm, woman or child. Why should they have expected anything better in return?
Rape of Nanking:
http://www.nanking-massacre.com/RAPE_OF_NANKING_OR_NANJING_MASSACRE_1937.html
Comfort Women:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comfort_women
(I know you don;t care for Wikipedia, feel free to cross reference this topic with the source of your choice)
Bataan death march:
http://www.bataansurvivor.com/content/the_bataan_death_march/1.php
Alexandra Hospital massacre:
http://www.streetdirectory.com/travel_guide/singapore/world_war_2_military_site/178/alexandra_hospital__lies_a_hidden_book.php
(In each of these cases the Japanese were the clear victors and could have shown mercy - but they didn't)
I could go on and on with more horrific examples of Japanese brutality but I think I've proven my point - the Japanese had proven themselves to be a ruthless opponent who had NO regard for anyone but themselves. They had no right to expect any better in return.
As for the issue you brought up, Truman's generals pleading for a blockade rather than an invasion please take a moment read this link:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/nuclear_01.shtml
Please read the entire reference. The conclusion is that NOT using the bomb would have been the immoral act.
You are of course entitled to your opinion. I do not happen to agree with it. I think that if Truman had committed the Allies to a blockade it would have resulted in the horrible deaths of many more Japanese to slow, agonizing starvation and disease than were killed by the bombs. I think that your portrayal of Truman as a monster would have more merit had he launched an all out simultaneous multiple nuclear assault on the country. As it was he staggered the attacks allowing Japan adequate time to surrender. They could have surrendered after Hiroshima - they didn't. Only after Nagasaki was it was obvious we had more bombs (or could make them) than they had cities did they surrender. That blood is on their hands.
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New renter says
Atomic bombs don't distinguish between the adults with little regard for others and the children who are not in any way responsible for the actions of their government.
America has shown no regard for human life in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan, committing many atrocities. Image if Al Qaeda had detonated two bombs in major cities like NY and San Francisco. It was no less of a crime against humanity when Truman did it.
Oh, and by atrocities, I mean things like...
And that's the guy who campaigned on ending the war that is still going on.
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Dan8267 says
No atomic bombs do not make that distinction. Neither do firebombs, bullets, chemical, biological or any other machine of war. We did not start that war, the Japanese did. By then the Japanese had already slaughtered thousands of Chinese, Filipino, Malaysian, Korean, and a plethora of other women and children. The reason? They were bullies. They never thought they would be any retribution. They found out differently. Do I think it sucks? Hell YES it sucks. I am sad for the innocents of the war, all of them. Children, animals, everyone. But that blood lies with those that started and continued that war especially when they pushed the fight well past the point where defeat was obvious. By the end of the war the "innocents" had become combatants. They were armed (badly) and had been trained to kill the invaders. The atomic bombs were awful, no argument there but they may have prevented much worse.
I also do not disagree the USA does some awful things. Unfortunately that is part of war. When children are spared by one side they are used as weapons by the other. I have personally spoken to Vietnam vets who had buddies killed by children carrying grenades. The Vietcong had no qualms about killing their own people even children. Al qaeda and the Taliban are no different in that regard. I have many more vet stories, most even worse that your video, but frankly they are inappropriate for this forum.
War sucks. It is best avoided. That is clear. you get no argument form me. However the original point of contention was in your comparison of Truman to Hitler and how they both were so deserving of an eternity in Hell. No argument on the latter, he was a bastard. I disagree strongly on Truman though. IMHO he did what he had to do to end the war in the only manner the American people would find acceptable - unconditional surrender. In doing so he likely prevented many more deaths nationally from the starvation and disease and potential kamikaze attacks against the blockading ships which would have resulted from the blockade.
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Dan8267 says
The is absolutely no reason to forgive Truman for correctly doing his job. He was commander in chief and did exactly what was expected of him. He had the weapon to end the war with the least number of Americans killed and used it. That was his sole responsibility. Mission accomplished. End of story. Not using the atomic bomb would have been a dereliction of duty to any soldiers killed invading or blockading Japan. My grandfather was with the 6th Marines at Okinawa while they were preparing to invade Japan at Kyushu. He (actually the entire division) thought Truman was the greatest American hero that ever lived. Enough with revisionist history already.
How this ties to bin Laden in any way shape or form is a deep mystery.
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OK,I didn't realize this was going to turn into a War discussion. I thought it might be a civil discussion about politicians changing their mind for their convenience?
Well I'll play the game. If any country kills innocents(including women & children) for any reason, All the citizens of that country should be executed. Get in execution line, behind me, Cowards.
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HEY YOU says
What's to discuss, politicians say whatever it takes to be elected at the time. That's why they have considerably less respect than used car salesman.
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HEY YOU says
Planet earth - human population 0
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HEY YOU says
Glad to get back to the OT. I particularly found this speech interesting given how well it juxtaposes with this thread:
http://patrick.net/forum/?p=1215563