WatchWhat if people just live somewhere but don't buy it?
In the Bay Area, in retirement Mexico, where ever.
That's me. A boomer on the threshold of retirement who owns nothing now and intends to buy nothing in the future. Not car, not house, none of it. Anywhere.
What comes of your speculation then?
Why do I need to own stuff when I can rent it for a fraction of the price? In the US, in Ecuador, in China? Why would I sink my hard earned money into a speculative venture when all I really want to do is live? I can live well without *owning* stuff.
What if more people like me stop buying losing propositions like real estate; we rent, we quit driving around in money sucking cars (we take the bus) we completely opt out of the ownership system?~(I have)~where does that land all of your speculative economic theories?
What happens then?
You quaintly think there aren't more people like me? People who realize that owning stuff is indentured servitude?
I had a meeting today with a financial planner and laid out my thoughts. Move somewhere outside the US, live off the stipends of minimal SSI and small other money, and just....exist. He was flabbergasted. Apparently no other client had ever come into his office without big plans for starting a business overseas and buying a place and making it big, big, bigger. My plan was small, small, smaller. We are 60 something Americans getting ready to drop off the radar.
Anybody with an ounce of good sense can see that buying property ANYWHERE is a risk that need not be taken. You can rent a place to live anywhere in the world and be money ahead. Roof over your head, done.
You real estate fools yammering amongst yourselves have each other convinced that money invested is money earned in the right amount in the right place in the right times and: voila! You're rich!
Meanwhile I'm sneaking out the back door, keeping my mouth shut and my money to myself and out of the taxman's hands....because I rent everything! And when I'm done with it I give it back to the owner who is paying the freight.
I do not understand the American obsession with *ownership*. I'm into the much cheaper and more useful *usership*.
People, you have been philosophically and financially fleeced.
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Herewith I will regale dear readers with an *extremely typical case* of the woman who must have everything.
Firstly, every man I know who loves being a cheapskate and says it with pride will have a woman around who thinks he is nuts. They hate his attitude. Almost every single woman I know is annoyed by my attitude towards buying stuff and blowing cash on nonsensical things.
Don't get me wrong, it's fun to be in nice restaurants and hotels. I have a rich client who pays all that whenever he wants me to go on some assignment with him. I had a meal at Etoile in Napa last month that was $90 per person, plus wine and dessert and there were other suckers in there with us.
I recently was introduced to a woman who lives in San Pedro, NL Mexico, the rich suburb of Monterrey Mexico. This is arguably the richest per capita city in all Latin America. The girl was chatting with me on skype and so we talked for a few hours and it completely reinforced my views on the subject of consumerism. Women and teenagers drive it and distrust men like me who reject it.
She was proud of her new iPhone, she had two of them. She had a bunch of pairs of Ray Ban Aviator sunglasses. I have the same but have had them since 77 or so. She would travel to Cabo san lucas several times each year. She showed me her clothes and told me how she had been to Spain and the fiance bought her a new VW Passat.
She was a very typical woman consumer. She had a little Tiffany gadget around her neck and bragged about it to me.
I told her I was an extreme cheapskate. I showed her the *new* cotton pinpoint oxford shirts I found at a goodwill, and my navy blazer that fits perfectly. I showed her the label "Pierre Cardin" and she said "Oh, he's out of style, that's very out of date." I chuckled.
I did thank her for her purchase of Apple products, since I have a bunch of shares.
I told her I didn't pay for cable or satellite, I have a roku box and an antenna, you now get HD over the air with an antenna.
I told her I love the coffee at Mcdonalds and the kids who recognize me give me the senior price (I don't qualify), so it's like 60 cents for a coffee.
She has a calling plan and can call the USA for 200 minutes and asked for my telephone number. I said it was my cell phone, I don't have a land line. She was incredulous. I could see her spirits sinking a little bit.
Mexican professional guys blow money like it's water. Why not? They hardly have any investments and they know that money in the bank can lose a lot of value in a short time with devaluation and inflation. Why worry, spend it! The other reason is a guy who is a professional in Mexico is a demi-god. Since 77% of adult women in Mexico have NOT graduated high school, they're quite impressed by a guy with a job, a tie and a car.
The Mexcian girl used her iphone on skype to walk around her place and show me her cool stuff. She showed me her Jetta VW (they're made in Mexico) She was especially proud of one of her handbags, made by a Spanish designer. She said it cost a lot and I believe her, since Louis Vuitton bags are also about $2500.
Think about that. Women everywhere scrimp, save, or blackmail a guy for a purse that costs $2500. Why would anyone in their right mind do that? I bought a fund once at T.Rowe Price and $2500 was the minimum investment and later checked it and now it's about $15,000. That's the power of not buying stuff.
She showed me he cool camera and I showed mine, the small one for traveling that is a sony with a zeiss lens. I paid $15 for it on craigslist.
I showed her my cute coffee mugs and said my friend in Austin Texas gave them to me. I told her about my 98 toyota pickup which runs like new and I saw the disappointment.
My other friend is a woman from Japan who lives in Australia and is about 50 and hasn't a dime to her name. She has an MBA and has always had well paying jobs. What is up with her? She likes to travel and she is generous to her friends and herself. She probably has spent in airfare over the decades enough to buy a couple of cars.
Anyway, I can reject consumerism for myself but I am not stupid. Women and teenagers are consumers who will not stop. This woman had two iPhones and would probably get another someday.I therefore believe in stocks over cash or material junk.
I told her I can now buy an iPhone for use with virginmobile ($25/month data/text/voice). She asked if I would buy one and I said I like my LG and she said "codo"=cheapskate. I thanked her.
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clambo says
Sounds to me like you need to find better dates. Non-materialistic women ARE out there - I married one and am grateful for it.
It does help one's perspective to go through a bottleneck at some point in your life. To watch all those things burn that were once so important to you or to be forced to whittle down you possessions to just about what will fit in your car or worse, what you can carry. Happens to people in other parts of the world all the time.
I suppose for most Americans its moving day. Finding and having to move all those heavy boxes still unopened from the last move is quite enlightening, especially when time is short.
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xrpb11a says
You are not alone, most of America would agree with you. Most of america is also heavily in debt, living paycheck to paycheck, and ill-prepared for retirement. Now that's living!!!
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clambo says
Professionals in Mexico barely make enough money to afford a small apartment and a ten year old beater of a car.
The ones you are talking about at the 1%'ers of Mexico.
Sr. Software Engineer / Developer / Programmer MXN 293,527
Project Manager, Information Technology (IT) MXN 413,475
Information Technology (IT) Manager MXN 424,847
General / Operations Manager MXN 808,889
Software Developer MXN 210,000
Regional Sales Manager MXN 497,996
Software Engineer MXN 204,193
http://www.payscale.com/research/MX/Country=Mexico/Salary
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Santa Cruz, CA
Cboy,
They also don't have expensive mortgages usually. Many live with a parent, grandparent, or have inherited a house.
It's culturally acceptable and common to be a spendthrift and save nothing because 1. former 150% inflation teaches blowing your money, "use it or lose it" 2. not common to find investments like Fidelity, T.Rowe Price, etc.
Once years ago I told my local friends about this idea for their proceeds from a business. The bank guy said they have mutual funds in Mexico and I spoke to a guy on the phone right there. The minimum investment=$100K USD.
The girl I mentioned in particular inherited a house and a pension income from both her father and grandfather. She works to spend her dough flying around and eating in restaurants, buying Raybans, handbags, etc.
Newrenter of course there are some "non materialistic women" out there. The exception proves the rule.
Go to your local *fancy* mall and tell me who is in there. I have never met an "extreme cheapskate" female. She must exist however, like unicorns.
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I think the real comparison once the house is paid off is taxes + maintenance versus rent. Where I live, the paid off house wins by a large margin. Hate to be an 80 year old and still needing to come up with the rent money, and have no equity.
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Which assumes of course you have no other form of equity, e.g. stocks, mutual funds, annuities, inheritance, 401k, social security, etc.
Those gangsta wannabe punks shuffling around in their baggy pants are not going to be making house prices rise much.
You can be an old geezer, take a chunk of change from your Roth IRA and make the down and immediately reverse mortgage the little house you want to live in the rest of your life. Problem solved using no "home equity".
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clambo says
On the rare occasions I hit the mall - and I HATE malls! - I see mostly high school kids. I don't know how old you are but if you are over 40 and looking at those kids I think I see your problem....
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Patrick, guess who's reading your website?
Max Keiser and the Keiser Report.
http://maxkeiser.com/2012/07/08/anybody-ounce-good-sense-can-see-buying-property-anywhere-risk-need-taken-you-can-rent-place-live-anywhere-world-money-ahead/
This thread has been referenced on his website today. I am honored and humbled. As a mere part time gardener and lifelong peasant, I had no idea that anything I had to say meant shit in this world. I am stunned.
On the other hand, I do my best writing in the middle of the night befriended by a jug of Russki Standart.
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Again, money is fiat and you better hope it will hold value if you put your theory to work. Look around at what's going on with the banks, there lack of stability is becoming a mainstream conversation.
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wthrfrk80 says
Yes but either way its still way cheaper than the rest of the BA
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KILLERJANE says
In theory, there's nothing wrong with a fiat currency. As long as it's supply is tightly controlled, it holds its value.
Of course we all know that its supply isn't controlled enough to avoid long-term inflation.
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Santa Cruz, CA
newrenter, there are no guys like me hanging around malls.
I don't go to them often but when I was in the nice ones they're packed with ladies shopping not just punks shuffling around.
Valley Fair in San Jose comes to mind.
If I like to scope out young chicks that's another subject not about being an extreme cheapskate. However, that's still not reason enough for me to drive over to a miserable mall just to ogle.
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McKeesport, PA
Well, for all the people who read my thread and thought it was great, I am a woman, but an educated woman. Once you know the ins and outs of finance which is not taught but to the last year of college, you can do ok living on little. Hubby just took a 25% hit in wages, and it doesn't phase us a bit. I wonder how many unemployed people are waiting for the 100k jobs to roll around again. It ain't happening. I retired in my 20's because we found that my mall job was costing me money, not paying me. It's easy to do the math, just add up all the stuff you need while working and if the total comes close to yearly salary net, then women can retire early, and live on one income. But you have to give up going to malls totally, live in a small house, and have no kids. Lots to give up, most people won't do it.
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clambo says
Well you are the one who hold up the ladies shopping at expensive malls and complains that "cheapskate" women are as elusive as unicorns. That's a bit like complaining you can't find a 4/3 3000 sqft house iin Palo Alto for under $500k.
Why not instead try the science dept at UCSC, hook up with a nice marine biologist or geochemist or other sciencey type. They're smart, can be hot and tend to be practical. Just watch out for the ones with large outstanding student loans.
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jan says
But then the hardcore feminists won't like you...
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wthrfrk80 says
Actually the ones I know would LOVE you - they "love" their jobs as much as anyone else.
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McKeesport, PA
I am a hardcore feminist!!! Now, young women compete equally with the men, so I'm cool with that. It only failed when the question of homosexuality was defined equally with "sex", we've come a long way since then. Besides it's none of their business either what I do. But, back on topic, both in the marriage have to keep to a strict budget, men can be bad at going out and spending money just as easily as women. We just felt that since he worked from home, I stayed home to keep him company, and it works for us. Soon, he will have that opportunity again, and we will be fine with one car, gas, and no clothing expenses. There are trade-offs for everything. The problem arises when both work and get house, cars, babies, and then she doesn't work. There is where the debt gets out of control.
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clambo says
Well, I am not a Chesapeake and I am probably twice you age. I have always paid extry for all the good stuff out of self respect. I have all throughout my house the granite and the stainless. Also a koi pond. I feed the stray cats around my place prime cuts. not leftover stuff either. The girls go wild for this kind of thing even if they act like I'm crazy for being so free with my $$. Even if you meat a frugal type gal, pretty soon she will get tired of all that. Even a vegetarian bookworm is gonna want adventure and that costs money.
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jan says
You gonna rund around in the buff??
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Santa Cruz, CA
Jody, I do not doubt that being free with your money to impress the girls is necessary at your age and position.
What impresses women are three things:
1. fame, fortune, or just fortune.
2. youth, good looks
3. intelligence, interesting to talk to, etc.
We may have a combination of these, some people may have one of these.
If you possess NONE, you're toast with the ladies.
If you have #3, you will still have difficulty.
Jan's comments gave me a chuckle, she "retired" at 20 and therefore is happy. No big surprise there. Who would not? I would not call that particulary feminist however.
I am a true feminist, the ladies should all go out and make their money for their various bags, toys, iphones, vacations, clothes, shoes, nights out with their girlfriends to go salsa dancing, pilates and zumba classes, and of course, do not forget those great $3.50 frappuccinos at Starbucks.
New Renter, I do not "complain" that cheapskate women are rare, it's just a fact. It doesn't bother me in the least they are spendthrifts.
Without them and the guys who kill themselves to please them, and greedy lazy teenagers, we would have a much worse recession.
When that petite young yuppie in San Pedro bragged to me about having two iPhones I just smiled knowing that she was like millions of other budding consumers who will pump up my stocks, particularly AAPL.
For the record, I kid around about being cheap but I drop hints so they think I have the bucks stashed for some future use. I do and this keeps them motivated.
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clambo says
Not quite. You're fine as long as the girl you're going after has none of those three qualities as well.
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McKeesport, PA
No, I just get my clothes from ebay, buying someone else's mistakes. You've misunderstood me again. Being cheap doesn't mean that you go without neccessities, we both have a small amount of money each pay that goes to walking around money.
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Brentok3 says
Really? I was under the impression that they were mostly corrupt and filled with drug-related violence.
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Davis, CA
This thread reflects the American attitudes about "consumerism".
Often we LAUD the things we like about it, and attribute them to our innate brilliance in coming up with them.
Many however attribute the negative sides of consumerism to the "other" or "those people", never themselves or the society they live in. It's always CRASS people or "material girls" that make the WRONG use of it and look like idiots. You of course don't care about what the neighbors think one whit right?
Classic case of poor craftsmen blaming their tools.
The thing that bugs me, is that the general case seems to be blaming poor people reaching above their station. If you have 12 yachts and 14 mansions you are not crass of course.
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Vicente says
I think you're right. We all live in this toxic culture where "keeping up" is the be-all and end-all.
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jan says
I don't think it is that simple. My understanding is that there was also a perception that women would enter the workforce only to leave after a few years to raise their children. Bosses were less willing to mentor even the brightest up and comers only to lose their investment within a few years.
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stoutfiles that's funny. I hadn't thought of that. Now the flashback to MadTV "Lowered Expectations"
Brentok may be able to get by fine. If you are not trying to attract chicks you can really save a ton and no one will bother you at all.
Guys who lose all interest in women can 1. eat in cheap restaurants 2. wear sweatpants or goodwill clothing 3. drive a heap 4. ride a bike and skip the car 5. not spend money traveling together to club med and suchlike. 6. no gifts, flowers, etc. to be bought.
Most people seek security and this is what I derive my extreme cheapskate-ism from. I fear lack of money more than the ridicule of people who are usually broke keeping up the appearance of wealth.
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clambo says
I'm the same way.
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It is possible to live cheapy in a small house outside of major metro areas. This has been my reference guide, and it is the wave of the future.
http://www.simplesolarhomesteading.com/
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Billy Bob says
Hey Apocolypsefuck is ...your name here, you should check this out.
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Billy Bob says
lol. Try living on solar power here in upstate NY and the rest of the Northeast. Good luck! You'll need it.
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wthrfrk80 says
In that case get your hands on one of these babies:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toshiba_4S
10 MW of safe, clean reliable nuclear power.
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clambo says
nonono...look don't go getting the wrong idea on that. I've always been a king farouk around these parts even when I was busticated. I make a splash because it is an APHRODISIAC on top of my own natural charms.Double dynamite. The thing what makes it so exciting for a woman is that it tells her you ain't the kinda dude to play it safe. Not a coward. Everyone will tell you a lady wants security and that is true. But Danger is what makes them keep straying over to Jody Chunders side of the street.
I respect your caution with $$ but cheapness is not an aphrodisiac. ask any lady., any honest one.
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jan says
It wasn't that at all, I just figured you to be even more progressive than most. I applaud nudists and naturalists. Savagery and barbarianism is my kinda thing.
I hate wearing clothes and have ever since I was a boy but if I have to I only wear the high dollar stuff. High thread count sheets also.
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New renter says
I seem to recall an article about Con Ed installing small solar panels on the tops of all its electrical poles in the NYC area.
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New renter says
Give me a couple billion and I'll buy one! :-)
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Barter!
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jody, I am in complete agreement. I have yet to meet a woman who likes a guy who is "cheap".
The notion is against our biology and evolution.
My rule of thumb is generosity in their presence 1. if I want more than company later 2. if it does not involve buying clothes, etc. (lingerie an obvious exception) 3. it's a reasonable restaurant.
For example, I would NEVER take a woman to Etoile in Napa for the dinner "tasting menu" at $90/ person. Never, ever happen.
If the restaurant she wants to go to seems too expensive I say I am in the mood for another cuisine. E.G. "Gee I am really in the mood for Thai/Vietnamese/etc.
Sushi is the kiss of death. I claim some kind of aversion to it. Of course that's untrue, in Kesennuma Miyagi Japan they had (gone now) the finest sushi in Japan and I ate it up ;)
It's a delicate balance, protect your budget for the future, let loose a little dough so women don't hate you, and never give the impression that your cheapness is *permanent*.
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Or just find a cheap woman. Assuming they exist somewhere.