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The Bankrupting of a Nation


By Honest Abe   Follow   Thu, 19 Apr 2012, 11:48pm PDT   8,456 views   89 comments
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Is it true 40% of American households recieve a direct financial benefit from the government? 40%? Thats the result of creeping tyranny...trickle down misery...just what the existing regime wants, comrade.

http://news.investors.com/article/608418/201204200802/ssdi-disability-rolls-skyrocket-under-obama.htm

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APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch   Wed, 4 Jul 2012, 7:50am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 50

I want to rip out Cheney's eyes and skull fuck him to death 1,000,000 times 1,000,000 times for his crimes against humanity.

DIE AND DIE AGAIN, YOU MONSTER!

HEY YOU   Wed, 4 Jul 2012, 1:54pm PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 51

iwog & Delurking

I don't disagree.
I vigorously agree.

lostand confused   Wed, 4 Jul 2012, 2:00pm PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 52

Somalia-the true free market paradise, with very small government and very little, to no regulation. Then we do have the former Soviet union.

Somewhere in the middle is a nice sweet spot.

FortWayne   Thu, 5 Jul 2012, 1:21am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (1)     Comment 53

marcus says

We only survive with way less big money in politics. But I don't see how we get back to how it was even 50 years ago.

50 Years ago the rest of the world was in ruins, while a great man was telling soviets to tear down the wall in Berlin.

Those days are not coming back, we no longer have a world monopoly. The only thing we have is high self esteem and entitlement mentality... oh that we have out here all right!

zzyzzx   Thu, 5 Jul 2012, 3:21am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (3)     Comment 54

iwog says

The penalty for screwing up is the US Trustee will ban a paralegal from preparing any documents and levy a fine of $10,000 or more. It's insane and has drive almost all paralegal preparers out of the legitimate marketplace.

However they are all over Craig's List. They are easy to spot because they charge more than $150 (illegal) or they don't have an office and want to meet you at your home or a restaurant

OK, so a paralegal shows someone how to fill out all the forms and the person submits the form as themselves, correct?

Or are you saying that the bankruptcy law from 2005 was something along the lines of welfare for lawyers (assuming that the lawyers get to charge more than the paralegal rate).

iwog   Thu, 5 Jul 2012, 8:12am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike (3)     Comment 55

zzyzzx says

OK, so a paralegal shows someone how to fill out all the forms and the person submits the form as themselves, correct?

Yes pretty much. The paralegal types all the necessary forms and arranges them but the debtor is the one who files the case and represents him/herself.

zzyzzx says

Or are you saying that the bankruptcy law from 2005 was something along the lines of welfare for lawyers (assuming that the lawyers get to charge more than the paralegal rate).

Partially, but mostly it was legislation to create roadblocks to filing bankruptcy period. Lawyers got additional hoops to jump through and additional liability. Debtors have to complete two credit counseling courses. It's one of the worst pieces of legislation in history and there are federal judges who still refuse to follow all of it.

In the original draft, credit cards were given priority over child support payments.

Honest Abe   Fri, 6 Jul 2012, 12:13pm PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (2)     Comment 56

First we bankrupt cities, then states, then the nation. How? Never ending spending and promises.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_HIGH_SPEED_RAIL?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-07-06-19-12-38

iwog   Fri, 6 Jul 2012, 1:13pm PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike (3)     Comment 57

Honest Abe says

First we bankrupt cities, then states, then the nation. How? Never ending spending and promises.

This is by design. Productivity is at record highs. The reason public services are going bankrupt is the aristocracy is sucking larger and larger chunks out of the nation's wealth creation.

You favor INCREASING the share the wealthy are stripping from our combined efforts, therefore your vote will bring the country down quicker.

Honest Abe   Fri, 6 Jul 2012, 2:54pm PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (3)     Comment 58

No, I favor the freedom that equal opportunity provides. Free enterprise. One succeeds or fails and owns the result.

I favor equality. Everyone should have an equal tax rate. If everyone enjoys public roads, public schools, public air and the like then everyone should have an equal "contibution". What should the equal tax contribution be? 5%, 15%, 20%? Why should anyone "get" but not "pay"? Where's the FAIRNESS IN THAT? What should the equal tax contribution be? Or don't you believe in fairness?

iwog   Fri, 6 Jul 2012, 4:20pm PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike (3)     Comment 59

Honest Abe says

No, I favor the freedom that equal opportunity provides. Free enterprise. One succeeds or fails and owns the result.

The same freedom present on a Monopoly board. One person ends up with all the money and everyone else goes bankrupt.

Honest Abe says

I favor equality.

Bullshit. You favor the birth lottery. You point to a billionaire trust baby and an orphan living in foster care and say "okay go! Both of you pay the same tax rate because it's fair!!!"

Everything you believe in is a cancer on this country.

bob2356   Fri, 6 Jul 2012, 5:27pm PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (1)     Comment 60

Honest Abe says

Everyone should have an equal tax rate

So you are saying capital gains should be taxed as ordinary income? Billionaire hedge fund managers would pay 35%, not 15%? How about Romney? Him too?

thomas.wong1986   Fri, 6 Jul 2012, 5:40pm PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (1)     Comment 61

bob2356 says

So you are saying capital gains should be taxed as ordinary income?

CG comes from after tax income vs ordinary income.. you do understand where the funds for investments come from ? and what is a liability owed to worker (employee) or vendor for services vs ownership of assets/investments...

tatupu70   Fri, 6 Jul 2012, 10:56pm PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (1)     Comment 62

Honest Abe says

Or don't you believe in fairness?

Fairness is bullshit. Tax policy has to be designed to promote a healthy economy. period. Life isn't fair.

If someone doesn't like their tax rate they are free to give their money to charity. Then they can pay a much lower rate. That's freedom.

tatupu70   Fri, 6 Jul 2012, 10:58pm PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 63

thomas.wong1986 says

CG comes from after tax income vs ordinary income..

So what. Passive income should be taxed at a higher rate than labor. Tax dividends and capital gains 3 times for all I care.

We do NOT have a lack of available capital right now. Taxing capital gains at a higher rate will have ZERO effect on business formation. Anyone who says otherwise is lying or stupid.

Honest Abe   Sat, 7 Jul 2012, 12:01am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (2)     Comment 64

http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/economy-a-budget/132185-capital-gains-taxes-affect-new-business-startups

Higher capital gains tax NEGATIVELY effects business formation.

Honest Abe   Sat, 7 Jul 2012, 12:14am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (3)     Comment 65

Tatupu - you said fairness is bullshit. Then why is the liberal mantra "Make the rich pair their FAIR share"??????????????

Admit that aking money from private individuals and giving it to a bunch of people dumber than you and I always distorts the economy- especially after waste, fraud, subsidies, perks, insider trading, mismanagement and the like are figured in.

And you are right, life is not fair, which is why some earn more than others...but should not be punished because of it.

After all, life is not fair, as you said yourself.

tatupu70   Sat, 7 Jul 2012, 4:46am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 66

Honest Abe says

http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/economy-a-budget/132185-capital-gains-taxes-affect-new-business-startups


Higher capital gains tax NEGATIVELY effects business formation.

I'm not sure if Mr. Gentry is lying or stupid, but he is wrong.

tatupu70   Sat, 7 Jul 2012, 4:50am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 67

Honest Abe says

Then why is the liberal mantra "Make the rich pair their FAIR share"??????????????

I don't know. Because it's a poor argument.

Honest Abe says

Admit that aking money from private individuals and giving it to a bunch of people dumber than you and I always distorts the economy- especially after waste, fraud, subsidies, perks, insider trading, mismanagement and the like are figured in.

What are you talking about? Tax policy has nothing to do with spending policy. Let's try to stay on topic.

Honest Abe says

And you are right, life is not fair, which is why some earn more than others...but should not be punished because of it.

Nobody is being punished. Anyone who thinks they are paying too much in taxes can give all their riches away. Problem solved.

bob2356   Sat, 7 Jul 2012, 6:09am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 68

thomas.wong1986 says

bob2356 says

So you are saying capital gains should be taxed as ordinary income?

CG comes from after tax income vs ordinary income.. you do understand where the funds for investments come from ? and what is a liability owed to worker (employee) or vendor for services vs ownership of assets/investments...

No, please try to explain this gobbledygook paragraph to me. Where does the source of funds for investments, be they after tax or before tax, have any relation to to capital gains taxes. Capital gains is a tax on the profit not the principle. You are aware that the capital gains tax is on the GAIN in value of capital investment aren't you? The only the gain is taxed, not the investment money. Shilling the tired old falsehood that somehow capital gains represents a double taxation just makes you look either willfully uninformed at best or cynically ideological at worst.

bob2356   Sat, 7 Jul 2012, 6:14am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 69

Honest Abe says

Everyone should have an equal tax rate.

Honest Abe says

Higher capital gains tax NEGATIVELY effects business formation.

So everyone should have an equal tax rate unless Honest Abe says they shouldn't. It's like being pregnant abe, either it is or it isn't. Making even one exception invalidates your entire argument.

Honest Abe   Sat, 7 Jul 2012, 10:36am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (2)     Comment 70

"Marxist type communistic progressive income taxes has been shown to lower work ethic and has even been found to drive up illegal activity". Source: "The Effect of Taxes on Labor Supply in the Underground Economy" - The American Economic Review, 84 no. 1 (1994) 231 -254

Progressive taxation dismantles the cause and effect relationship between working hard and achieving success. The effect on individual optimism is all pain and no gain.

"Generation after generation , the evidence shows that increasing taxes on the wealthy raises virtyally no revenues. In the view of many economists tax revenues actually decline in the long run because of the negative impact on the incentives for successful people to work and earn". From: Dollar's Demise Traces Roots to U.S Tax Trap" by Kevin Hassett

This type of mentality (progressive taxation) reveals that liberals support Communistic practice's, though publically they deny any attachment to Communism.

Well, you're not fooling me.

tatupu70   Sat, 7 Jul 2012, 10:43am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 71

Honest Abe says

Progressive taxation dismantles the cause and effect relationship between working hard and achieving success. The effect on individual optimism is all pain and no gain

It seemed to work pretty well between 1940 and 1970... Don't you think?

Funny how history always seems to disprove your theories, isn't it?

Honest Abe   Sat, 7 Jul 2012, 11:32am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (3)     Comment 72

No it didn't. It only looked that way. Imagine how much better Americans would be if they hadn't been bilked and their money, trillions of dollars, wasted, squandered and used to distort the economy and cause numerous recessions along the way. Government is the negation of liberty - in case you haven't noticed.

tatupu70   Sat, 7 Jul 2012, 11:34am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 73

Honest Abe says

No it didn't. It only looked that way.

lol. I see. And how did you come to that conclusion?

iwog   Sat, 7 Jul 2012, 12:15pm PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike (3)     Comment 74

Honest Abe says

No it didn't. It only looked that way. Imagine how much better Americans would be if they hadn't been bilked and their money, trillions of dollars, wasted, squandered and used to distort the economy and cause numerous recessions along the way. Government is the negation of liberty - in case you haven't noticed.

I submit that the fake economy from 1946 to 1980 was far superior to the fake economy from 1981 to 2012.

Abe, you live in fantasy land.

thomas.wong1986   Sat, 7 Jul 2012, 2:19pm PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (2)     Comment 75

tatupu70 says

It seemed to work pretty well between 1940 and 1970... Don't you think?

Funny how history always seems to disprove your theories, isn't it?

Many things changed after 1975 due to growing dominance of both Japanese and European economies. It wasnt 1950s or 60s any longer and the high taxes to rebuild the world didnt apply anymore..

Yes we had higher taxes decades past.. we were the ones paying for rebuilding nations.

thomas.wong1986   Sat, 7 Jul 2012, 2:25pm PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (3)     Comment 76

bob2356 says

Capital gains is a tax on the profit not the principle. You are aware that the capital gains tax is on the GAIN in value of capital investment aren't you? The only the gain is taxed, not the investment money.

Yes I do understand gains, but you havent talked about the potential losses from Capital Investments...

Therefore you ignore the risks investor makes with after tax disposable incomes.

There is a difference between income earned and capital gain/losses!

This was NEVER an issue until Obama and his cronies were elected.
Its just another Chicago style shake down!

iwog   Sat, 7 Jul 2012, 2:49pm PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (3)   Dislike (3)     Comment 77

thomas.wong1986 says

Yes I do understand gains, but you havent talked about the potential losses from Capital Investments...

Oh bullshit. How in hell does a CEO take any risk when he's awarded 20 million dollars in stock options? How does a landlord take any risk when he depreciates a building for 20 years and coverts business profits into capital gains?

American business has become sophisticated enough to turn any profits anywhere, even wages, into capital gains. It's a complex game to convince suckers who actually work for a living that there's some sort of investment risk involved.

Do people sometimes risk capital in order to make a profit? Yes. Does that risk benefit society? Almost never.

The dirty little secret that thomas and others like him hide all the time is that there's a single dollar of job creation for every thousand dollars used to make gasoline more expensive. There's a single dollar of genuine risk capital for ever thousand dollars a CEO is skimming off the top of McDonald's or Walmart. There's a single dollar of REAL investment for every thousand dollars sucked off the top by a trust baby who never had a real job in his life.

Every data point that comes out of the right is a lie and a fraud.

iwog   Sat, 7 Jul 2012, 2:51pm PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (3)   Dislike (3)     Comment 78

thomas.wong1986 says

This was NEVER an issue until Obama and his cronies were elected.
Its just another Chicago style shake down!

Why did Reagan and Bush support a law that turned capital gains into regular income?

Because it was never an issue until Obama and his cronies were elected? Or are you just full of crap again?

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/01/20/408345/reagan-raised-capital-gains-taxes/?mobile=nc

tatupu70   Sun, 8 Jul 2012, 12:12am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 79

thomas.wong1986 says

Many things changed after 1975 due to growing dominance of both Japanese and European economies. It wasnt 1950s or 60s any longer and the high taxes to rebuild the world didnt apply anymore..
Yes we had higher taxes decades past.. we were the ones paying for rebuilding nations.

So, the competition from Japan and Europe caused the divergence in income among US workers? It caused the 1% to continue to get large raises while the bottom 95% pay stagnated? It caused income inequality to reach current record levels?

bob2356   Sun, 8 Jul 2012, 5:45am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 80

thomas.wong1986 says

Yes I do understand gains, but you havent talked about the potential losses from Capital Investments...

Therefore you ignore the risks investor makes with after tax disposable incomes.

There is a difference between income earned and capital gain/losses!

Risk? What risk? You don't pay capital gains taxes if there is no capital gain. If you lose money you take a loss against your taxes.

Are you talking about risk of loss of principle? So you are saying that capital gains taxes should be low and earned income taxes should be high as a subsidy against possible bad investments? People working for a living should subsidize investors to make more risky choices than they should have because investors can make it up in low cap gains taxes on profitable investments?

That's a perfect example of the problem, not the solution.

BobMSN   Wed, 5 Sep 2012, 12:25am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 81

In the US history, two presidents will be remembered for cutting cherry trees.

President Washington, as a boy of 6, cut a cherry tree at his father’s farm to test his new hatchet. He later told his father: "I cannot tell a lie, father, you know I cannot tell a lie! I did cut it with my little hatchet.''

President Obama, as a man of 46, telling us the best way to get cherry is to cut cheery trees, 1% each time so 99% will be happy to get the cherry. He told us: "I cannot tell a lie, people, you know I cannot tell a lie! I don’t know how to plant cherry trees, but I know how to cut them to get cherries for you. Please give me four more years. I will cut more cherries for you.”

edvard2   Wed, 5 Sep 2012, 12:57am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 82

Let me take a wild guess.... If a Republican gets elected then even though the exact same things would happen, everyone on the right would instantly go silent and suddenly everything would be all peachy-keen...

iwog   Wed, 5 Sep 2012, 4:18am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (1)     Comment 83

BobMSN says

President Obama, as a man of 46, telling us the best way to get cherry is to cut cheery trees, 1% each time so 99% will be happy to get the cherry. He told us: "I cannot tell a lie, people, you know I cannot tell a lie! I don’t know how to plant cherry trees, but I know how to cut them to get cherries for you. Please give me four more years. I will cut more cherries for you.”

Total bullshit.

The sooner people like you abandon that sociopath Ayn Rand, the better the world will be. EVERYTHING a modern conservative believes in regarding the economy is a lie. NO EXCEPTIONS!

"“I have worked with investors for 60 years and I have yet to see anyone — not even when capital gains rates were 39.9 percent in 1976-77 — shy away from a sensible investment because of the tax rate on the potential gain. People invest to make money, and potential taxes have never scared them off.”

~ Warren Buffett

thunderlips11   Wed, 5 Sep 2012, 6:58am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 84

Ruki says

Then Warren Buffet is lying.

So, give examples of people running from investments because the taxes were so high.

Ruki, Corporate Taxes are the lowest they've been since WW2. Income and Capital Gains taxes are the lowest, too.

Explain the 50s and 60s when this country saw the greatest boom in history, when the upper bracket paid 90% of income to the IRS.

mell   Wed, 5 Sep 2012, 7:13am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 85

bob2356 says

Risk? What risk? You don't pay capital gains taxes if there is no capital gain. If you lose money you take a loss against your taxes.

Are you talking about risk of loss of principle? So you are saying that capital gains taxes should be low and earned income taxes should be high as a subsidy against possible bad investments? People working for a living should subsidize investors to make more risky choices than they should have because investors can make it up in low cap gains taxes on profitable investments?

That's a perfect example of the problem, not the solution

You have be to be kidding! The losses on investments are capped per year, so any significant loss will take an eternity to write off, so that's already totally skewed and unfair as they tax all of your potential profits.

What right does that idiot and his crony government have to take capital gains taxes (and go to war with them) on invested money that they have already taxed you with, which, if they are sound investments, help create and secure a lot of jobs while they subsidize home-owning and flipping to the hilt so that every dipshit can brag about their great home/asset/investment and living the American dream. None of the capital investments made by the simple taxpayer (not talking about too-big-to-fail crony corporations here) is subsidized in any form whatsoever. Please come back with that senseless reasoning once capital investors get "interest adjustments" and taxpayer bailouts when they are deep in the shitters, or fight against bailouts for big banks and other corporations close to the POTUS, then you might actually be onto something.

iwog   Wed, 5 Sep 2012, 7:16am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (1)     Comment 86

Ruki says

Funny how Ayn Rand wasn't mentioned at all by BobMSN. Yet you go off on it.

The modern right wing is nothing more than the failed religion of Ayn Rand. I don't really care that you can't see it, most people can.

Ruki says

Then Warren Buffet is lying.

Of course he's lying. He has to be lying, otherwise the fantasy you live for can't possibly be true. Religion trumps everything including facts, data, and people with more investment experience than you have.

mell   Wed, 5 Sep 2012, 7:24am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 87

iwog says

Oh bullshit. How in hell does a CEO take any risk when he's awarded 20 million dollars in stock options? How does a landlord take any risk when he depreciates a building for 20 years and coverts business profits into capital gains?

You are right that this particular case is risk-free and could argue that if this is part of the job compensation package it should be taxed as regular income, that's debatable though (as they usually still have a purchase price) and different to investments made with income that was already taxed. Other than that, companies are generally free to award the sky to their management if they want to as long as it is THEIR money and the shareholders think it's dandy. The real problem are companies sucking taxpayer bailout money like GE, GM, the big bankstas and so on - they actually give away to their fatcat CEOs other peoples money that they never earned in the first place!

thomaswong.1986   Wed, 5 Sep 2012, 7:27am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (1)     Comment 88

iwog says

"“I have worked with investors for 60 years and I have yet to see anyone — not even when capital gains rates were 39.9 percent in 1976-77 — shy away from a sensible investment because of the tax rate on the potential gain. People invest to make money, and potential taxes have never scared them off.”

OK... lets have it your way.. lets have higher taxes.. are you suggesting the Govt will do what with that revenue collected.. Pay down the debt or get deeper into spending as we have seen too often. Will the Govt go hog wild and start paying their states with pet projects.

A fact from a well known economist...

Nobel laureate economist Milton Friedman characterized the reduced government tax revenue as "cutting their allowance".

iwog   Wed, 5 Sep 2012, 7:32am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (1)     Comment 89

thomaswong.1986 says

OK... lets have it your way.. lets have higher taxes.. are you suggesting the Govt will do what with that revenue collected.. Pay down the debt or get deeper into spending as we have seen too often. Will the Govt go hog wild and start paying their states with pet projects.

The only thing that matters is wealth disparity. I don't care what the government does with the money as long as they spend it.

thomaswong.1986 says

A fact from a well known economist...

Nobel laureate economist Milton Friedman characterized the reduced government tax revenue as "cutting their allowance".

Dueling Nobel prize winning economists is about as stupid and pointless a game as one can imagine.

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