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Permalink Like Dislike (1) I can't help but wonder if the following statement is true:
"In religion and politics, facts don't matter. People believe what they WANT to believe, IN SPITE of the facts."
I'm not the first person to make this observation.
I'm guilty of "wanting to believe" too.
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iwog says
I don't even know why these guys are even bothering to construct rational arguments to defend FOX News.
If we say FOX News is total BS, then their argument is CNN/MSNBC is also propaganda. Does that make FOX News any less evil?
The other argument is profitability, which does not even have a shade of credibility. Why would a profitable news source be necessarily credible?
These guys really need to suspend their neo-conservative bias and watch Jon Stewart or Colbert. The fact that American politics is total parody has given these 2 guys a full-time job.
Then they'd start to see that reality does indeed have a liberal bias ;).
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It's what we call the news!
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uomo_senza_nome says
Though I think defending Fox is distracting, I don't think it "destroys" Abe's credibility. He could be pointing out an actual phenomena. News programs exist to sell cars. If Fox sells cars by sensationalizing random stories, and CBS (CIA Broadcasting Somnambulance) and NBC (N-B-See nuthin') sell cars by sensationalizing NYTimes stories, then Fox is more likely to randomly select something the other news programs find too politically offensive to use to sell Hondas vs. Fox trying to sell Roundup and trucks.
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uomo_senza_nome says
Actually, the bias comes from diversity and sustainability and random moderation. Nature abhors a Spike (specialization) as much as it abhors a vacuum. Conservatism wants to preserve some kind of comfort zone by forcing everything out of that zone that it doesn't like and to accumulate all of the resources it can. Nature has myriad ways of cutting off the spikes and filling in holes. This broadening of connections and diversifying of resources and dependency (liberal bias) is frightening to the ego of anyone. So frightening, that we assign nature's random behaviors to an intentional god so that we can stop trying to find reasons for things that are simply not reasonable.
"In 1492, Columbus sailed the ocean blue.
In 1493, he stole everything he could see."
The Arawak version, where Columbus changes from a Liberal to a Conservative.
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People fear. It's very plain to see. They fear for their families. They fear for themselves. It's not natural to fear. Fear spells dependance. If someone can hurt you usually it's financially. Childern fear as they are under the tutelage of parents.
Usually intimidation is enough and people will back off. Speaking and writting only in subtle terms. The fear remains. They stay put. Another words get back in your cage and stay there.
Being clever in your "current" situation may not work. You may be in debt or get a bi-weekly paycheck. In that case your more than likely screwed. You can ignore all of this if you want. Notice people over the age of adulthood they "owe" no one they are maviricks and very independent. They are held down to by "legally" making them dependands. David Bowie had to be subtle or this song may have met the garbage monster. Its like saying. Yea ok we know. Get back in your cage and ignore it. Hes also saying to some get in the rat race debt rat and win. Well how TF can you win there? You can't. They never let you out of that one. Fractional in of itself measuring the cost of what you buy vs the labor or work to pay it off puts you in debt and consumption continually. Another words. You labor and work far to much for what your getting. 700 dollar TV set is a circut board that costs 35 dollars to make labor wise. You think someone would grow a fucking tomato and find out what its like not paying 2.80 a pound. Or get a cow and not pay 13 dollars a pound for steak. You can't your in the city. Don't think that wasn't a part of the plan. Your stuck. It's grovel or hit the soup kitchen for you. Another words you don't really know anything but dependance. You could go right over the mountains and start building a house on the weekends. Greenhouse etc. Instead of sitting home and jerking off cause they won't let you hop on something at work you want. Or if your married sitting their contented with your brood and your wife, because well you provided. Then it's back to the hell hole on Monday with your shine box. The weekends are nice except when they hit the "juice" because well you fucked up and you may get fired. Its nice to hit the switch on insensitive bastards. I guess. You wanted it so you gots it eat shit and suffer. It can get poured on in so many differnt ways. You'll look like a guy that got hit full in the face with a old clothes iron twenty times before you can even think up another way. Some things NEVER back off. Another words try to get clever see what that gets you. TIME TO TAKE IT DOWN.
Artimus Maxtor 10:5 Niner: Stop circling the airport. The Air traffic controller has gone to another field.
Its not so much keeping things away from you peers. Which debt and a bi-weekly paycheck will lend itself to stumbling all over one another to shine the paper mans shoes. When it comes down to it they have absolutely no respect for people that grovel. They may be used to it of course. Ask yourself? Would you respect someone that you could push around very easily? That has to be a beggar living hand to mouth just hoping you don't take it all away from them? You might think ole Artimus is a mean S.O.B. Think again maybe Artimus dosen't like seeing people having to crawl for their supper.
Artimus Maxtor 2:6 Confucious says: Confucious get hit by phone book many time. Goofy, seeing double but still can find bed.
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uomo_senza_nome says
RT: Russia's answer to Fox News. According to Al-Jazeera. Ain't this fun?
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uomo_senza_nome says (quoting George Carlin)
Carlin had the same view I've evolved into over time.
Here's Chomsky on Manufacturing Consent (mainstream media propaganda, intentional or not):
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5631882395226827730
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uomo_senza_nome says
Yeah, excellent stuff.
US MSM 'experts': Barry "Double Dipper" McCaffrey, David Gergen, Erin Brunett, Arthur Laffer, John Fund, Krauthammer, Cokey Kudlow, etc.
RT is hated because they have real guests who give a real diverse range of opinion, not just the usual Optimate line.
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Auntiegrav says
He was actually constructing a logical argument to prove that FOX News tells out relevant news stories while others don't. I don't think that's true.
I hate all mainstream news media, they are all propaganda. So my point is -- don't even bother defending them, because in your own words: "they sell cars".
Selling cars is not journalism it is manufacturing consent, IMHO.
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Auntiegrav says
Ah, much more nuanced Auntiegrav. Thanks! :)
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Aptos, CA
Honest Abe says
If this is the cause of the housing bubble, then how does it explain the following facts:
1) The UK housing bubble
2) The Australian housing bubble
3) The Canadian housing bubble
4) The Spanish housing bubble
5) The Greek housing bubble
6) The Fact that Deutche bank ended up as the largest landowner in Cleveland
How do these have anything to do with Community Investment Act? I don't disagree that government(s) were a significant problem, but this one detail, doesn't seems to have any positive or negative correlation to the problem. I might suggest you evaluate your own biases. I suggest the following three might be blinding you
A) You hate democrats and think everything is their fault
B) Nothing the government can do is good
C) You believe the poor and colored folks are the cause of America's problems.
Once you accept your biases, it will help you understand the world better.
P.S. I can agree that interest rates were probably part of the problem. But notice just part of the problem, there were other factors that complicated things.
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oliverks1 says
Nailed it there, not just the problem with Honest Abe, with many others as well.
It is apparently very hard to suspend these biases for a minute and actually think.
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We've seen a few shifts of the media in the past few decades
1) News reports have been cut down. Sound bites..you name it. Commercials are even smaller these days. No one airs a one minute commercial. These days a 30 second or even a 15 one is sold
2) International reporting post 2005ish has been dramatically cut. If something happens in the middle east these days they'll report about Israel from London...I'm freaking serious!
3) Nearly everything is dumbed down. TV news (especially network) is on a 6th grade reading level. Maybe the McCloughlin group would higher...Firing Line I'd say was higher..the best bet today would be Intelligence Squared which is on bloomberg sometimes
4) Is there a bias? Of course there is. First there is a bias that they won't bit the hand that feeds them. NBC never reported anything bad about GE when they were owned by them
4) We've in an environment where everyone wants to speak but no one wants to listen. On any given second at least 70 videos are uploaded to youtube.
I remember Nader said once that we really don't get local news anymore. A 30 minute block has say 8 minutes of commercials. The weather reported with a teaser, there's sports and then factor in anything violent that happened that day and there's really hardly anything. News networks repeat the same local news over but switch anchors..A network affiliate now repeats the same news for maybe 25-33% of what it airs every weekday.
here's an example of how some reporting has changed
ABC News did a great job in looking at both sides and gave ample time. These days that's impossible..there's no way that can be done now.
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leo707's website
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Cloud says
I would be very interested in seeing data sets/studies that support the idea of a liberal media bias.
When I have looked into it in the past all studies on the topic show a pretty steady conservative bias in the media. NPR seems to be the closest to an unbiased moderate news source, and even it has been shown to have a slight conservative bias.
But, please if you have a study that "proves" a liberal media bias I would love to see their data and methodology!
Thanks in advance.
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Cloud says
Nothing in that link that indicates bias. I does not matter how individual's in a media organization identify themselves. I would be curious to see how the self-reporting demographics of FOX "news" if on a similar poll. I would not be surprised if many ranked themselves as independent or moderate.
What is the overall story output of a media organization?
Cloud says
In a sea of information there are plenty of individual examples of bias. This is what an organization like FOX latches onto, what they don't look at is the big picture.
Even with individual examples you cited when the messages of media organizations are looked at in their entirety it has never balanced to show a "liberal bias".
What I am looking for is not anecdotal evidence, but a comprehensive study that looks at the big picture. I don't want just one card, but I want to look at what is in the entire 9-deck boot.
I do however appreciate you response.
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oliverks1 says
Don't underestimate how EVIL Carter and Clinton truly are. It's a massive conspiracy engineered to give Habitat for Humanity more business.
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Emeryville, CA
First of all, even the creators of the "liberal bias" myth, Kristol et al., admitted that it was all a ruse to work the refs. There is no liberal bias.
Even if you watch the (obviously and openly) liberal hosts on MSNBC, you'll notice some stark differences: facts and nuance.
You'll hear them describe Obama's problem with the left flank, and why. You'll hear complaints about how too little was done on X and how he is too cozy with Y.
I watch Faux news; it really is operating more on a brain-stem/id level, whereas the Center-Democratic leaning outlets appeal to logic.
Keep in mind that faux news is not necessarily "conservative" but an arm of the GOP establishment. I don't recall them criticizing Medicare part D, or march to the Iraq war. What happened to conservatives decrying the US as "policemen of the world", for example?
There is no logic, only emotion. (Excepting Chris Wallace sometimes, and Brett Baier, sometimes)
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Facts are just words one presents as proof for their side of the argument. Only the gullible take "Facts" undisputed.
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CaptainShuddup says
Don't you see the inherent disdain for the facts in your statement? Facts are real, provable, logical. A fact is that Obama has lowered taxes tremendously and extended the Bush Tax cuts. A fact is that the GOP has decided that that did not work to stimulate the economy.
The fact is they lack coherence.
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CL says
Facts are only facts if both parties understand the parameters. And facts are only facts then as determined by those parameters.
For a christian Fundamentalist a fact would be... "You can not go to heaven unless you accept Jesus Christ in your heart..."
A fact for California Liberal circa 1979...
"Ozone is creating a hole in the atmosphere and we will experience an ice age by 2010." and then there's... "Blue Whales will be extinct by 2012"
My point is, you folks like to present theories and beliefs as "Facts" when they most certainly are not.
But that's all vague now isn't it? I tell you what give me a Fact, and we'll see just how concrete it is. Is it a fact or is it position, one would take? There is a difference, you just might like to pretend there is no distinction.
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CL says
REALLY!? That's a "FACT"?
So I don't have to pay that extra 2K in taxes this year, because you say Obama lowered taxes "tremendously"? And what about Gas, Beer, Cigs, Snacks, and Soda taxes, those don't count as taxes in your demented obtuse little world?
I want to thank you, thank you for going big, and illustrating my point.
You never disappoint, what a Lutz!
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CaptainShuddup says
In your example, this is not a fact, but a belief. Hence the large number of people who can rightly believe otherwise and be disproven.
A fact: There are over 2 billion Christians in the world.
If that fact is changed or disproven as new information is made available, the objective person replaces that fact with an updated fact.
Emotions are real, but the way they shape your worldview are interpretation.
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CaptainShuddup says
Did Obama raise Gas Taxes, Excise Taxes on Beer, snacks or soda? WTF are you talking about?
Demented, indeed!
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CL says
LOL very true. That's why they're called neo-conservatives, meaning total hypocrites.
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CL says
Can you name those "outlets" that appeal to logic.
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Obama Sucks Ass = Fact!
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TPB, that's you right ?
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CaptainShuddup says
This is the limit of neocon critical thinking ability.
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For those who are not Patriots. Who are not honorable... do not click on the link below, because it will not upset you.
However, if you believe in JUSTICE for one and for ALL, then please do click on it. IT'S OFFICIAL AND GAINING A SOLID RESPONSE.
Sheriff Joe is going after the forger and is doing it officially.
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solver says
It's not that I'm not honorable and not a conservative.
It's that I have common sense, and Obama wouldn't be there with all of his warts and air of illegitimacy if someone REALLY high up didn't want it.
He was put there to do the bailouts. He's an errand boy with a Harvard Law degree. He was that way from the start. Why do you think he's not putting up more of a fight for Obamacare? He's not fighting that hard, really.
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Los Angeles, CA
I agree, but that doesn't make it right. You and I among ALL others are held tight on the leash and held accountable for our misappropriated pennies, nickels, dimes and dollars, not to include the traffic laws and minor to petty civil crimes... and so should everyone else, despite how deep in the rabbit hole they really are.
If there's a forger out there who has perpetrated this crime, then they should be held accountable equally like us. The same goes for the Corzine and others who were able to steal billions and simply allowed to walk with their GET OUT OF JAIL CARD.
The ultimate point is that we're a beacon of hope, freedom, prosperity among others in America and much of that used to be based on honor, integrity, freedom, constitutional rights and now many of us are just allowing the higher powers to be able to get away with anything that they want.
We're not owned. We're a free people in AMERICA and unless we take a stand and draw a line in the sand saying that we will not allow our rights to be openly trampled on, they will continue to push and take them away and in very latent ways.
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http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entries/nbc-launches-internal-investigation-over-trayvon-martin-case
Well if that isn't a form of a bias I don't know what is. How can you edit out what was on a 911 call and say it is OK.
A simple petition to a cable co can cause nbc channels to be dropped in many local areas.
I think zimmerman should be arrested and charged. But this isn't the first time that nbc has selectively cut out parts of what really happened to suit some other purpose. Back in the 90's whdh asked the then senator ted kennedy what he thought about a recent bombing in n. ireland. He said that it "could" have been the IRA although....cut..that's all the network needed to hear, no need to hear other possibilities.
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I have cloud and TPB on "ignore" because I can get the exact same "inforamtion" from AM radio. No need to hear the same stuff on PatNet.
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leo707's website
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Cloud says
And yet the overall message from 99% of media has a conservative bias.
Interesting... so what you are saying is that you would prefer if mainstream media organizations had an even stronger conservative bias. OK, to each their own I suppose.
I for one prefer my news to carry the lowest level of bias as possible, but that is just me.
Cloud says
So we need shitty propaganda outlets, who mostly report lies, in order to balance out the only somewhat conservative bias in the reporting of the mainstream media?
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Cloud says
Journalists tend to be better educated and more knowledgeable about history and government than the general public. Most have passports and have been out of the country and understand context first hand.
Sooooooo......reality has a well known left wing bias, or maybe you're so skewed to the right that everything looks liberal?
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iwog says
The journalists I knew at the Dallas Morning News weren't skewed to the left at all. Even the Democrats down there are conservative.
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rootvg says
I'm sure that's true and was part of my point. The people accusing the media of a left wing bias are viewing things from a warped perspective.
It also makes a useful non-argument to chase away any compelling articles or opinion pieces.
Media: "The world is a sphere."
Neocon: "Naw, that's just left wing bias."
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iwog says
Journalism here is skewed to the left because that's what people in this area want to hear.
Journalism in north Texas is skewed to the right because that's what people there want to hear.
It's a business.
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rootvg says
Well put.