WatchSome racist follows an unarmed 17-year-old African American boy. The boy buys candy and iced tea at a convenience store and continues walking home. The neighborhood watch scumbag stalks the boy, murders him with a gun, and then claims he was acting under Florida's stand your ground law, which states that a person can defend himself from an attacker rather without fearing legal prosecution.
The law was intended so that victims of violent crimes like rape, robbery, and attempted murder could fight back without risking prosecution. It was not intended to give a person the right to pro-actively engage someone in battle, and if you win -- which isn't hard when your armed with a gun and the other person is a minor with no weapons -- then you get away with murder. However, the police didn't arrest the murderer. After all, the victim did look suspicious. He had suspicious skin tone.
And that is why I hate social conservatism. A boy with his entire life ahead of him, snuffed out because of some stupid reptilian xenophobia.
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Dan8267 says
Interesting. Was he taken to the hospital at all? Even if he was, doesn't look like he stayed there very long, considering he calims to have had a "broken nose" and likely a suspected concussion.
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that's an odd position you guys have taken ... it is now "Zimmerman wasn't harmed enough to defend himself from the suspect!" How interesting. The police that responded said he was beat up and bleeding .... but the blood thirsty race-baitors want to add fuel to the flames of hate ... progressivism at full stride folks, nothing more.
Zimmerman carried out his duty as a citizen. I would rather live in a neighborhood full of Zimmerman's than a 'hood full of 17 year old drop out thugs that prowel around in the dark. But hey, that's just me.
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marcus says
really? How is it "we all know" that? I don't feel that is true at all. Unless "we all" read minds. After this, lets play the "what if" game. You know, like, "what if" Zimmerman was a golden gloves fighter, then he would have whipped the kids ass, held him for police, and been the vicitm of a drive-by a few days later (yes, that exact same thing has happened a few times, so go ahead and argue against it). I suspect that you have never, not once, defended yourself or someone else against being harmed or victimized. It is not fun, planned, or satisfying, but it is worth doing. Zimmerman was doing a good deed. The suspect was prowling around in the dark. If you lived next door to Zimmerman, and walked outside at night, who would you rather find at the end of your walkway? Lord Barry's own grandma would rather find Zimmerman walking his beat than a 17 year old negro prowler. Right? So would you.
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Bap33 says
Yeah, why should we trust our lying eyes!
Dan8267 says
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Dan8267 says
True, true, eliminating poverty would be the most effective way of reducing crime (violent or otherwise).
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leoj707 says
Yeah, this Zimmerman guy would've be at work, rather than looking out for trouble.
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Bap33 says
Yes, but not at the same rate as in a poor neighborhood.
Bap33 says
Yes, but not at the same rate as in a poor neighborhood.
Bap33 says
Yes, but not at the same rate as in a poor neighborhood.
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leoj707 says
Poverty is a crime .
There is a cause for this poverty; and, if you trace it down, you will find its root in a primary injustice. Look over the world to-day—poverty everywhere. The cause must be a common one. You cannot attribute it to the tariff, or to the form of government, or to this thing or to that in which nations differ; because, as deep poverty is common to them all the cause that produces it must be a common cause. What is that common cause? There is one sufficient cause that is common to all nations; and that is the appropriation as the property of some of that natural element on which and from which all must live. - Henry George.
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Having been both a teenage "prowler" (with 2-3ish school suspensions) and a 20 something with a license to carry a concealed weapon I have been somewhat on the fence about this situation.
The funny thing (weird, not haha) about the whole debate on the "stand your ground" law is that in any state you can legally shoot and kill someone who you feel threatens you or others. Usually when it comes to that "retreat" is not an option. If either Zimmerman's tale is true or the Trayvon boosters version of events is true it does not seem like "stand your ground" plays a role. However, I am not too familiar with the "stand your ground" laws so I am not sure what they add to this.
Anyway, as the evidence comes in I am increasingly convinced that Zimmerman should be arrested for at least manslaughter.
Is Zimmerman a racist? Probably, based on the way he seemed to profile people, but the 911 call does not seem to include a racist slur. I finally got around to actually listening to it last night, and any claims of a racist slur are silly.
Is Zimmerman's version of events true? No. Clearly from the police security footage Zimmerman was not damaged in anyway close to what he and his lawyer described. Having been on both-ends of repeated head-blows resulting in broken noses and blood loss they leave clear marks. A broken nose needs to be set if you don't want it to look like putty. Setting your own nose is not something you do on your own unless you are the type of person who cauterizes your own wounds with gun powder or sews them up with a fishhook and line.
Also, this may come as a shock to some, but police do indeed lie in reports in order to keep things tidy.
1st degree Murder? Very unlikely. Murder in the 1st degree is a premeditate plan to kill someone, usually someone you already know. In order to prove 1st degree, one would have to show that Zimmerman planned for killing someone -- anyone -- that night. That is not only very difficult to prove, but also unlikely that he even planned on killing Trayvon after seeing him.
With Zimmerman's history of violence it seems likely that he stalked Trayvon then bullied him provoking a fight.
Yes, so far I am more or less going to ignore the eye witness accounts. It was dark, the accounts are contradictory and eye witnesses are notoriously unreliable.
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leoj707 says
leoj707 says
let me quess .... your eyes work better than anyone who backs up Zimmerman? Or, is your eye whitnessing just better because you didn't have to make a really important choice in a very tense situation? Cmon!! You can't have it both ways. You cant suggest visually gathered info is crap and then base your position on visually gathered info!!! Arggg!!!
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leoj707 says
I did not ask , "does it happen ever?" I asked, "does it happen much?" (I used "much" to match the previous poster, but should have went with "alot"). My bad.
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Bap33 says
Are you saying that a video recording makes anyone viewing the recording an "eye witness"?
C'mon!!!
Bap33 says
Apples and oranges.
Studies have show that "visually gathered" evidence from and "eye witness" then verbally relayed to others is unreliable. Even "flash bulb" memory is known to be fallible.
While video can be edited, it is a recording of an event unaffected by human bias, memory error and/or lies. Anyone can view it and see what actually happened.
Are you saying that on the video you see a man that has suffered from a bleeding wound on the back of his head, caused by blunt trauma, as well as a broken and bloody nose?
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Bap33 says
OK, fair enough.
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Zimmerman looked hunky-dory to me. Throughout, you can see his face, no broken nose there. At the tail end of the video, you can see about 2/3 of the back of his head, no visible damage, and with his buzzcut, it would be hard to miss.
Nice job with Atkins or 90X though, or he lost all his baby fat since his first mugshot years ago.
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The nose may have been suspected to be broken, and if it was not broken it would stop bleeding pretty easily, and thus no bloody face for those on the Prowler's "side" to cheer about. Have none of you ever been popped in the snoz? It blurs your vision and hurts like a dickens, even without breakage. And my point stands, you feel Zimmerrman needed to be victimized to a higher degree BEFORE he could defend himself, and that is nonsense. THe whole idea of personal safety is to not be a victim. Geeez.
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Bap33 says
Bap you are really starting to stretch here. A blow to the nose strong enough to cause bleeding, and be suspected of being broken is going to be accompanied with heavy swelling and one probably two black eyes.
Broken noses are usually pretty easy to identify. Massive swelling is one thing that can make a non-broken nose look broken.
It is very clear that Zimmerman lied about a life threatening assault before he chose to kill Trayvon. That really makes me question his entire story.
I doubt there is any law in Florida that allows one to kill in self-defense after pursuing, harassing, and bullying someone leads to a physical altercation. That scenario seems to be more consistent with the evidence, than Zimmerman's story.
Bap33 says
No, I feel like Zimmerman was probably never "victimized". He seems to have instigated the situation.
I am all for personal safety and victims using deadly force when necessary. There are plenty of incidences where people have used guns/knives/fists to deter or kill aggressors. That's great, I for one would prefer that there were less victims in this world. However, Zimmerman does not appear to be one of those people.
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leoj707 says
well ... at least you are fair and balanced, using only hard facts for your position and zero guessing.
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leoj707 says
how do you place the prowler out in the night doing his prowling ... while a neighborhood watchmen is doing his watching .... and somehow make the watchmen the instigator?? That is right, in Oppositeville.
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Bap33 says
Oh, no in this situation there is more guessing than not, but what facts there are do not support Zimmerman's story. They do however seem to indicate the story I mentioned.
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Dude .. have you looked at a street map that shows the Prowlers home base, the store he was going to or from (no vid yet), and Zimmerman's neighborhood? I suggest you make that effort, as it blows the Prowlers claims apart in a HUGE way. There will soon be some other location given by the Prowlers family to cover his location.
Why no comment on the actions of the 18 year old in the vid I posted?
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Bap33 says
What is Prowling? If it's to go to the store, then I'm about to Prowl for Camel Filters and some half n' half.
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Bap33 says
That's a strawman argument. We're not saying a person has to be harmed X amount before defending himself. The article states quote "The security camera footage shot inside the police station directly contradicts a police report written that night." and continues that the video also contradicts the statements to the press by Zimmerman's attorney. Then the article goes into detail about how.
Look, I know you want Zimmerman to be found innocent, but the evidence shows guilt. If you ignore all evidence that shows guilt, then you are not exactly an unbiased judge.
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thunderlips11 says
Prowling is walking while black. It's just as illegal as driving while black.
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leoj707 says
Exactly, and this is why the stand-your-ground law cannot apply. Think about it.
Image that some guy, let's call him Punchy McAsshole, decided that he wanted to get into a bar fight. So he walks up to some random guy, calls his girl a whore, and then punches the guy. The guy, let's call him Average Joe, punches back several times.
Now, Punchy McAsshole feels that his life is in danger so he pulls out a gun and shoots Average Joe. Let's say Punchy legitimately fears for his life because he realized he picked a fight with the wrong guy. Should Punchy be held liable for killing Joe? Of course, he should. Punchy created the situation. He's not a victim.
Oh, and this allegory applies regardless of the skin tone or sexual orientation of any of the players.
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Bap33 says
Yeah, what thunderlips said.
Bap33 says
Have you ever walked much? I walk a lot, and often take various routes that are not always the most direct. Often when on the phone -- as was Trayvon -- I will go quite a bit out of my way to finish the conversation.
Anyway, I will look at the maps when I have time.
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Bap33 says
Probably because it is entirely unrelated to the thread. Perhaps if it was a video of Trayvon doing the attacking that would be relevant.
BTW, any videos of when Zimmerman attacked that cop? Or, how about a video of the altercation that prompted Zimmerman's fiance to file domestic abuse charges against Zimmerman? Ether one of those videos would also be relevant.
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I think the difference between the pro-Zimmerman group and the pro-Martin group can be summed up as this:
If the skin color of the two people were exchanged, the pro-Martin group would still call for the arrest of black Zimmerman for the killing of white Martin, and so would the pro-Zimmerman group.
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Zimmerman is not white, but he is not negro. ANd color don't come into play until you are asked to describe a suspected powler.
Are you folks suggesting that all of the crime and suspects in that area that matched this situation have no merit on how the police, or Zimmerman conducted themselves?? Why would you not expect the suspected prowler to not take steps to avoid being wrongly suspected to be one of those that have been doing the crimes in that area????? No need for behavior modification to fit in by anyone that is negro? Is that it? Only everyone else must adjust to survive in the streets the thugs around us control?? CMon man, that makes no sense.
Who in their right mind wants to see anyone innocent or harmless, dead. 17 or 37 ... black or brown or yellow .... male or female .... old or fetus. More negro babies die from abortions than they do from ZImmermans, so place the correct amount of attention where it is needed, if saving innocent, harmless, lives is your desire.
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Okay I've avoided this thread until now, but here's my analysis. It's wild speculation based on what has come out so far and might be totally wrong, but I "feel" it's what actually happened:
Asshole #1 Has a chip on his shoulder. Might be about rich people or white people or just teen arrogance.
Asshole #2 Has a chip on his shoulder. Might be about punks, blacks, or kids in hoodies.
Asshole #1 Jumps a fence he shouldn't have jumped to take a shortcut.
Asshole #2 Wants to be a cop but can't, and is looking to prove himself.
Asshole #2 observes asshole #1 and calls the police. The police tell him not to mess with asshole #1.
Asshole #2 ignores the police and confronts asshole #1.
Asshole #1 doesn't owe any explanation to anyone about anything and shouts something to the effect of "fuck you".
Asshole #2 says "fuck you" back and both posture.
Asshole #1 or Asshole #2 throw the first punch. They fight.
Asshole #2 takes a punch and is enraged. He shoots asshole #1 in the back as asshole #1 runs away.
Verdict: Manslaughter
I think both of them aggravated the situation and were influenced by the general dickishness of modern society to stand their ground for no good reason. If there's no gun, this is at worst a fight between two assholes. Zimmerman goes to prison for 7 years or so because lethal force wasn't necessary and the only ground he was protecting was his right to follow Trayvon Martin around.
The whole race angle is really stupid and is being fanned by the media. Both liberals and conservatives are guilty of letting the media manipulate them into taking sides on an issue that should have been a simple battery case, and will be a relatively straightforward manslaughter case. Both of these men are probably racist to some extent, but it means nothing and has no greater implications on society.
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Sounds right to me. Good job Iwog.
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iwog says
Hello, this is your testosterone calling! You are a male teenager and your buds & girlfriends expect you to act like a "man" I mean shithead at any moment. Please be prepared for your pop quiz by checking your brains and parental advice at the door.
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iwog says
iwog says
Nice lawyering, Iwog. You're analysis would be right on except for one thing. This is Florida, not California. Different laws.
First, Zimmerman is at least guilty of voluntary manslaughter if not murder. You didn't distinguish between voluntary and involuntary, so I wanted to clarify.
Second, Florida has a 10-20-life law that applies to this case.
http://www.dc.state.fl.us/oth/10-20-life/index.html
If convicted, Zimmerman faces a minimum of 25 years in prison. I'm not sure, but I think he might even be eligible for life for voluntary manslaughter under this law.
The 10-20-Life law is very big in Florida.
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Yeah, Iwog's pretty much on the mark. The only two variations I would put on it are Vicente's astute comments about teen testosterone, and the only evidence that asshole #2 was punched is the testimony of asshole #2.
Oh, yes and the voluntary/involuntary manslaughter issue.
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leoj707 says
I guess I can't wrap my mind around the possibility that Zimmerman would shoot an unarmed guy in the back without some sort of physical altercation.
It's possible, but I think it's more likely they knocked heads like rutting bucks before the shot was fired.
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iwog says
I have a feeling Zimmerman is an unemployed, lost, wanna be tough guy, thinks he's smarter than he is, kind of dude. Lots of anger there.
Pure speculation, slightly backed up by his DV and Cop Assault charges.
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iwog says
Heated words have been known to drive someone to murder. I am not ruling out a physical altercation, and things can get physical without punches. Perhaps Trayvon just pushed Zimmerman, then turned to leave -- or turned to run, yelling for help, when he saw the gun.
Oh, yeah and I was unaware that Trayvon was shot in the back. I don't think that any self defense law allows you to shoot someone in the back.
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thunderlips11 says
My understanding is that Zimmerman was in the process of applying to become a cop.
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iwog says
If Zimmerman even touched Martin, one cannot blame Martin for fighting back. If anything, Florida's stand-your-ground law as intended for Martin not Zimmerman. Martin didn't instigate the situation and he tried to get away as apparent by his phone call.
The only question is whether Zimmerman is guilty of first-degree murder or voluntary manslaughter. He'll probably be convicted of the later since the former is too hard to prove.
Race only matters in this case because it establishes motive, but it certainly is important for that. The prosecution always has to establish motive and means.
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leoj707 says
Damn, I didn't know that either. That does make it look pretty much like it has to be murder not manslaughter. And it's not defense when you shoot someone in the back.
If you can shoot someone in the back, you can simply point the gun at him to ensure your own defense. Furthermore, if you wanted to stop someone from fleeing, you could shoot him in the leg instead of where his vital organs are. I can't see how Zimmerman could have had any other intention but to kill Martin if he shot him in the back. And certainly, it wasn't in defense.