Unlisted Property Leads


By Patrick   Follow   Thu, 15 Mar 2012, 4:02pm   13,479 views   41 comments
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Find a good deal on a house to buy or to rent by skipping the MLS and real estate agents.

Or make money by sharing your unlisted-house and rental leads.

The best situation for a buyer is to make an offer directly to the owner, without paying any commission to agents, and without any shill bidders. The seller also benefits from a direct offer by avoiding commissions, avoiding dishonest agents that block bids, and avoiding the cost and time of showing and advertising their house.

So how can buyers find owners who might want to sell? Or landlords who don't advertise publicly? By buying a lead from someone who knows about it. These people are often called "bird-doggers" or "jobbers". People who have leads describe their lead on the Property Leads Forum. The public description does not include the exact address or owner contact information. Interested buyers ask questions on the Property Leads Forum to estimate whether it would be worth paying for the exact address and owner contact information. The lead seller answers the questions as best he can without giving away the address or owner information.

Payment for a lead depends on the reputation of the seller. Payments start at $5, and rise $1 for each net positive review from buyers, up to a maximum of $50 for a lead seller who got a net 45 good reviews (meaning 45 more positive than negative reviews). Conversely, the amount a lead seller can charge falls $1 for each net bad review, though not below $5.

There are no refunds, but buyers don't risk much. They risk only $5 when buying from a new lead seller. Lead sellers with many positive reviews cost more, but they have proven themselves to be more reliable.

Payments are via Paypal. Patrick.net will take a 25% commission before paying the lead seller, but will also pay all Paypal charges out of that. So for a $5 lead, Patrick.net will receive $4.55 after the first Paypal fee, and then will pay out $4.17 to the lead seller so that the lead seller gets exactly $3.75 after that Paypal commission. The profit to Patrick.net is only 38 cents for a $5 lead.

Got a lead to sell on an unlisted property?

http://patrick.net/housing/leads.php

Need a lead on an unlisted property?

Check out the Property Leads Forum. Share lead descriptions with your friends to help them.

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  1. Patrick


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    2   8:30pm Thu 15 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Why exactly?

  2. Nomograph


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    3   10:33pm Thu 15 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Because these leads are unlikely to have value. The MLS is full of properties that are actually for sale.

  3. investor90


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    4   1:48am Fri 16 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Good Idea! Today I was talking with an alleged Realtor-lobbyist who informed me that many California Realtors were getting tired of the Listing agent practice of refusing phone calls or emails from Buyers agents about their MLS listings. Apparently, this is rampant in California. The "Buyers agent" function is being deconstructed by Realtors who demand both sides of the commish. She went on to explain that she has been lobbying (apparently successfully) to dismantle the DRE since they really only support the big Realty firms and rarely consumers. She said the existing DRE is too costly to the state budget. Instead the DRE will be re-organized under another state agency. I don't know how this will help. More bureaucrats getting raises and promotions for doing NO customer service. Licensing estate agents was designed to protect consumers, but just the opposite has happened. Instead consumers like sheep, are slaughtered twice: Once by Realtors and Second by the moribund DRE.

  4. investor90


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    5   1:50am Fri 16 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    I am ready to buy a list, but see nada.

  5. gary275


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    6   7:57am Fri 16 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Nomograph says

    Because these leads are unlikely to have value. The MLS is full of properties that are actually for sale.

    sure, but with values that are unrealistic and even the sellers know it. They are just paying the agent for the sugar coated morphine pill that sometimes bears results and sometimes doesnt.

    It's a good idea nevertheless

  6. DaveM_Renter


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    7   9:07am Fri 16 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Nice idea, good luck with it! I'm looking forward to seeing the first leads!

  7. Patrick


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    8   9:08am Fri 16 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    investor90 says

    I am ready to buy a list, but see nada.

    That's because I need people with knowledge to list stuff. How can I encourage them to do that? I'm offering to pay them.

    I think it's kind of a chicken-and-egg thing. Once people see listings, they'll add more, etc.

    Is there some source I myself can use to get started? I suppose I could try selling NOD (Notice of Default) records myself. Just have to get them from the county.

  8. PockyClipsNow


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    9   9:27am Fri 16 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike  

    This idea is probably a waste of time but please pursue it you never know and the cost is super low for you.

    Craigslist is where the FSBOs are.

    Its bird dogging which is largely useless as its a rare rare thing to find, there are so many agents canvasing everywhere with flyers and advertisements and even door knocking and they scoop up all the leads/listings/buyers/sellers.

  9. Patrick


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    10   9:46am Fri 16 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Yes, the cost of trying this is super low, so why not?

    Please comment here if you have ideas for getting people to list stuff they know about.

    One idea from my wife is that people who are moving out of a rental should list it on my site and make a little money. They obviously have the inside knowledge that they are going to leave!

  10. taxee


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    11   12:36pm Fri 16 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    With your website expertise you might try a service that offers to list properties that went the traditional MLS route but ended up being withdrawn from the market. I often wonder if they just got fed up with the BS.

  11. Patrick


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    12   12:46pm Fri 16 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Yes, if a listing was withdrawn from the MLS, that's a good clue that they will take a lower price or deal directly with a buyer.

    But how to find those? I'm kind of dependent on other people to enter them.

    Someone who was into research on specific properties could potentially make a good living from this service.

  12. LASVEGASWINNER


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    13   3:08pm Fri 16 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (2)  

    Having survived 35 years of the real estate investing wars, I have never, ever got a "deal" from a FSBO. Try and point out a defect in their "castle" and they are insulted. And wait to you get back that inspection report and try to neogitiate some repairs. The 6% paid to an agent is nothing if you get ripped off. I prefer HUD Properties and Government Foreclosures when wanting a Wicked Discount

  13. Patrick


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    14   4:18pm Fri 16 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    LASVEGASWINNER says

    Having survived 35 years of the real estate investing wars, I have never, ever got a "deal" from a FSBO.

    I'm not talking about FSBOs though!

    I'm talking about approaching people who have not yet listed, and maybe didn't even intend to.

    People who you know have some motive to sell, because of a tip you read on Patrick.net...

  14. 1sfrenter


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    15   4:51pm Fri 16 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    As a prospective buyer, why wouldn't I just do the legwork myself?

    Or maybe I am just the kind of person that could find the leads to post for you. I like doing that kind of stuff.

    It really has not been that hard to use the free parts of the subscription foreclosure sites to track down potential listings. Foreclosure.com will give you the street name, date of NOD, date of auction, owner's name, general vicinity on a map, and sq. footage.

    With that info. between the assessor's office, property shark, zillow, blockshopper, and google, tracking down the exact address and sales history is a cinch.

    The problem is, THEN WHAT?

    1. I find a house I want with a NOD: approach the owner with an offer for short sale.

    2. Find a house that is up for auction: I'm not a flipper nor an investor, not interested in the risk involved with buying a house at auction: wait and then approach the flipper/investor and see if they want to make a quick sell before fixing and listing. HOW DO I FIND and CONTACT THE PERSON WHO BOUGHT IT AT AUCTION?

    3. Wait until it does NOT get bought at auction and becomes an REO: HOW DO I GET THE BANK TO EVEN CONSIDER SELLING IT TO ME when they are sitting on their REOs and letting them seep out on their own sweet time?

    Sorry for the caps, but those are the questions I have. Finding the houses is the easier part (at least for someone like me who likes playing online detective), but figuring out WHOM to contact to try and buy a place is the challenge.

  15. PockyClipsNow


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    16   5:05pm Fri 16 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    What you are talking about is the same thing realtors train in extensively. Get hired by a RE broker as an agent and they will teach you "How to get listings".
    BUT substitute "How to buy a house" instead.

    The realtor wants em to sign a contract to list it for sale, you want to do the SAME LEGWORK and cut out the agents commision. Its technically very easy, but huge legwork. Also u compete with 1000 scam artists doing 'we buy houses' scams (quitclaim deed with no release of mortgage then they control the house to skim rent until the foreclosure 2 years from then. many other scams out there....)

    I would recommend just writing letters and door knocking, when u get a deal find an escrow company. Use any purchase contract u want as a buyer the seller is at legal risk for non disclosures NOT the buyer - so check out RE forms at staples.

  16. Patrick


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    17   5:22pm Fri 16 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    1sfrenter says

    As a prospective buyer, why wouldn't I just do the legwork myself?

    Because you don't have the address until you buy the tip.

    1sfrenter says

    Or maybe I am just the kind of person that could find the leads to post for you. I like doing that kind of stuff.

    God bless you! Please try to make money from this and post some leads. So far, no leads. Yours would get a lot of attention as the first one.

    1sfrenter says

    HOW DO I FIND and CONTACT THE PERSON WHO BOUGHT IT AT AUCTION?

    Eventually the transfer of ownership will show up in county records, right?

    1sfrenter says

    Finding the houses is the easier part (at least for someone like me who likes playing online detective), but figuring out WHOM to contact to try and buy a place is the challenge.

    OK, do that detective work and get paid for it! We could both benefit.

    What would make it really worthwhile?

    PockyClipsNow says

    I would recommend just writing letters and door knocking, when u get a deal find an escrow company.

    Yes, I agree. But also, please consider selling your leads on Patrick.net for fun and for money.

  17. Dsr


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    18   5:39pm Fri 16 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    The fact that the address is not shown right away wreaks of Realtor tactics and the old school. The future of 'listings' or real etate for sale will involve more information that's totally accessable and totally free, not the other way around.

  18. 1sfrenter


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    19   6:29pm Fri 16 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Patrick says

    Because you don't have the address until you buy the tip.

    Yeah, but I could get the address if I paid for a subscription to realtytrac or foreclosure.com.

    Which I don't because

    a) I'm a tightwad and
    b) I am still trying to figure out what to do with the info. I would get (which I have already figured out how to get without the paid subscription)

    IF I have addresses of homes that have been issued NODs, that is only the very first step. THEN track down the owner's address, if it is not their primary residence (very easy to do), contact them - politely - and convince them to sell their house to me as a FSBO or short sale.

    IF the house has already been bought at auction, I would want to find the investor/flipper who bought it. Where would I find that info? County recorder's office? Then, contact them and try to buy the house before the fix and list.

    And if the house becomes an REO, finding the bank that owns it is easy enough, but finding someone at that bank that will assist in selling it seems near impossible.

    BUT, I could see how holding someone's hand through the above process might be worth something....once you've figured out all the steps.

    And once an offer is accepted, hire an inspector and RE attorney to draw the papers up and no real estate agents involved at all.

  19. 1sfrenter


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    20   6:33pm Fri 16 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Dsr says

    The fact that the address is not shown right away wreaks of Realtor tactics and the old school. The future of 'listings' or real etate for sale will involve more information that's totally accessable and totally free, not the other way around.

    It is free once you figure out how to work around their paid subscriptions (using propertyshark's free features, your county assessor's online parcel info., blockshopper.com, zillow, and google).

    Where/how do foreclosure.com and realtytrac get their info? Do they pay for it, groom the data, and then resell it online as a paid subscription? Or do they get it for free?

    I'm new to all this. Maybe it's as easy as going to the assessor's office in person. ?? I dunno.

  20. 1sfrenter


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    21   6:34pm Fri 16 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Patrick says

    One idea from my wife is that people who are moving out of a rental should list it on my site and make a little money. They obviously have the inside knowledge that they are going to leave!

    Great idea!

  21. Patrick


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    22   8:43pm Fri 16 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Dsr says

    The fact that the address is not shown right away wreaks of Realtor tactics and the old school. The future of 'listings' or real etate for sale will involve more information that's totally accessable and totally free, not the other way around.

    There is a difference: realtors have a huge motive to lie to you, since they don't get paid unless you buy.

    The tipper does not have any motive to lie, beyond $5. If the information is good, give the tipper a good review, and he can charge more for the next tip. If not good, give him a bad review and he can charge less. He has no motive other than to give good information that really helps buyers.

    Totally free information would be nice, but how would it work? Are you going to go out of your way to tell people something special that you know? If so, why not just do it now?

  22. Patrick


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    23   10:57am Sat 17 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    You know, this whole thing can be summarized as "bird dog broker".

    "Bird-dogging" is looking up good tips for investors, for referral fees. It's a well-established field.

    So the question now is how to find birddoggers and to get them to use this service.

    I know they normally make $200 - $500 if a deal closes, but for this service, they don't have to wait for deals to close.

  23. bighorse


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    24   12:35pm Sat 17 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    For a seller to accept the first offer they get for a home when they haven't even listed it... you better be offering a very very very high price that they cannot refuse.

    It's like strangers that come up to me and ask if I wanna sell my car. My instant reaction will be to say no. If that stranger gives me the idea to sell, I'll likely list it to see what prices I'd get first. If I don't get what I can get from the stranger, then I'll call the stranger.

    Seems like anyone who uses the service will be the sucker if a transaction goes through.

  24. Patrick


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    25   2:00pm Sat 17 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    It's not exactly like a random stranger offering to buy your car.

    It's more like someone knows you're behind in the payments and your car is about to be repossessed, and offers you a quick way out.

    Maybe you don't have time to list it, and would be much better off selling right now.

    Or maybe your car is obviously in really bad shape and you don't have the desire or ability to fix it up. At some point, people just give away their car because it costs too much to repair.

  25. Patrick


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    26   4:17pm Sat 17 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Yes, but it will clearly say that it has been sold before, and how many times. Here's the exact verbiage: "This lead costs $5 and has been bought 1 time."

    But that $5 is just to start. Each time you get a postitive review, the amount any of your leads costs goes up $1. So the next lead sale will then cost the buyer $6, because you have a better reputation now. That goes on up to $50 per lead, but maybe that cap should be higher?

    The address and owner contact info could indeed be resold. I don't think there's any way to stop that. But as I understand classic "bird-dogging", you don't directly sell a lead for $500 on the spot. You have to wait until the person who got your lead actually closes on the property, and then you get your $500.

    This is different in that the payments are all immediate.

    I appreciate your feedback. What would make it worth trying out listing a lead?

  26. LASVEGASWINNER


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    27   4:43pm Sat 17 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    The quickest way to "burn out" investing in real estate is trying to work around the system that is geared toward Realtors. If you work with the right agent, your investment portfolio will grow faster and you will make money with less stress.
    Your challenge is to find the agent and lives and breathes finding good deals. They are out there.

  27. bubblesitter


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    28   6:00pm Sat 17 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike  

    LASVEGASWINNER says

    If you work with the right agent, your investment portfolio will grow faster

    Very funny. :)

    LASVEGASWINNER says

    Your challenge is to find the agent and lives and breathes finding good deals.

    That is impossible.

  28. EastCoastBubbleBoy


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    29   6:44pm Sat 17 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Patrick,

    I have a few leads, but posting them would "give away" my location. Any way you can keep the identity/ username of the lead giver anonyms?

  29. Patrick


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    30   8:33pm Sat 17 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    E-man says

    How much are you willing to pay me?

    75% of what readers pay me. It has to go through readers so that you gain (or lose) a reputation for lead quality.

    EastCoastBubbleBoy says

    Patrick,

    I have a few leads, but posting them would "give away" my location. Any way you can keep the identity/ username of the lead giver anonyms?

    I had not considered that. But hey, your identity / username already is anonymous! None of the other users know who you really are unless you told them.

    If you want, you could register with a different email and sell them that way. It's free to try!

    But it really is important that some identity that you choose develops a reputation for quality leads. I don't think it would work to make all the lead sellers anonymous. Then they wouldn't have any motive to improve their reputation, because they wouldn't have any identity to attach their reputation to.

    repo4sale says

    I HAVE 8000 LABELS OF LANDLORDS THAT OWN LAND AND BUILDINGS IN CALIFORNIA.

    Would that help buyers get a good deal?

  30. Patrick


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    31   8:37pm Sat 17 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    E-man says

    So you want RE leads. I can sell you 500 to 1,000 leads a week for the Bay Area. I will give you the property address, owner's name(s), owner's mailing address, and in some cases, owner's phone number. I will also give you their loan balance, how much the property is worth, how much they currently owes on the house, when they received their NOD, when they will receive their NTS, and when the house will be auctioned off, and how much the starting bid will be.

    Hey, here's an idea: just give me the other info (not the address or owner) and I will post it under your name. If people have questions, you answer what you know. If they want to buy, then I'll forward the money and you enter the address and owner info.

  31. Nomograph


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    32   10:23pm Sat 17 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (3)   Dislike  

    Wow, you mean I should buy low and sell high? Thanks, Einstein.

  32. freak80


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    33   10:32pm Sat 17 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Investing in hindsight is always very profitable.

    I don't see squares or ovals anywhere on that chart...except in hindsight.

    Is the current stock market a square or an oval? I cannot tell.

  33. LASVEGASWINNER


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    34   12:09am Sun 18 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    Is it possible to guess which direction this price chart is predicting prices to go? When a 90 day line and a 7 day line head in the same direction, you might have a really strong clue on to what to do with your investment money.

  34. Nomograph


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    35   7:41am Sun 18 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike  

    repo4sale says

    AND YOU INSULTED THE #1 IRR REAL ESTATE PERSON!

    I heard that Obama faked his birth certificate. Is this true?

  35. Patrick


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    36   2:15pm Sun 18 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Making that graph not start from zero exaggerates the increase. There is some slight increase in Vegas prices lately, but here's a better view, from my own data service:

  36. curious2


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    37   2:37pm Sun 18 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    [...]

  37. Patrick


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    38   3:06pm Sun 18 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    curious2 says

    If people sign up to maintain an empty bank-owned property for five years, including paying property tax, then they get a right of first refusal on any sale price, and if no one has offered anything then they get the property free and clear.

    I think it would be a good idea, but lately I've heard that the banks don't actually own a lot of that empty property.

    What often happens is a deadlock, where the bank threatens the ownerwith eviction, and the owner stops maintaining the property, mails the keys to the bank, and leaves. This is the famous "jingle mail".

    But the bank does not foreclose, because it doesn't want to be liable for the maintenance. The actual owner is long gone, and it takes a very long time for the county to get around to auctioning off the house for non-payment of property tax (years I think).

    If someone moves in and starts to maintain the property, the bank may just decide that the maintenance caused the value to rise enough to make it profitable to exercise its option to foreclose, and then take the house and sell it.

    Would you maintain a house that the bank could take at any moment, and resell? You'd be working for the bank, for free.

  38. curious2


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    39   4:21pm Sun 18 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    [...]

  39. Patrick


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    40   12:43pm Wed 21 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Would it be better if I did not require a seller to type in the address in advance of selling their lead?

    Right now, you can't list a lead without first putting in the address to my database, so that I'm sure it's a real address.

    But maybe potential lead-sellers don't want me to have the address. I know I can be trusted not to use the info myself, but they don't know that.

    So would I get more people listing leads for sale if I did not require them to enter the address until they got paid?

    There is still the reputation feedback system to limit bogus leads.

  40. curious2


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    41   3:39pm Sat 24 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    [...]

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