I wouldn't call you a deadbeat, and I don't think any reasonable person would, either. Impulsive and innumerate for buying in Orlando Fl in 2004 -- perhaps; but not a deadbeat for capitulating and walking away from a poor financial decision. I might've hated you in a generic sense for being a brick in the wall, but hey...To my mind, a deadbeat would be the skeezass who hasn't paid on his mortgage in X # of years and yet benefits from the utility of his residence either by renting it out or living there himself rent free. That is fucked on more levels than just basic fairness.
BTW I lived briefly in Central Florida during that same period (College Park area) and I have never witnessed a more palpable example of crowd mania before or since. I actually feel lucky to have witnessed it up-front like that, as it was a very illuminating glimpse into human behavior/consumer psychology. Some of the most rational, reasonably numerate friends I had at the time seemed to possess their own squaring jigs for why it made sense to buy a house. I remember trying to rationalize with some of them about why real estate always going up just didn't square with reality. I always felt like the guy trying to talk a kid out of tattooing his first girlfriend's name on his shoulder. The forces were so great that, yes, I occasionally doubted my own common sense; I thought maybe I was old fashioned or stubborn or (shudder) 'maladaptive.' One thing I don't see mentioned much these days is the impact that the turn of the century had on popular perception. I remember there was this vague sense that -- 'Hey, it's America in the 21st century! It's a totally different game now! '
Anyway -- your loss is no great one in my opinion. Central Florida (Orlando) could have been nice enough once upon a time. Unfortunately, it is nothing more than an asphalt patty melted over some moldy swamp snot rotting in the sun. Some of the rudest and/or scariest people collect their mail there. Indeed, most of Florida is a total write-off, save maybe the Dry Tortugas. It's a shame.
Justanother. Don't be suprised that I look at you as a "victim". Not of robosigning or anything silly like that. I look at you as a "victim" of usury. Something no one has the balls to this day to say. Especially that shitpad of a government that fails to protect its people. Yet claims war is the best way to do it and lets their people fall victim to any kind of usury they want to bring about leaving their people in "debt slavery". They wonder why people are in the streets calling for their heads. The people once again calling for their head have been screwed by some really clever crooks. They may not know just how because of the distortions. However they do know they have been swindeled.
This government operates in very much illegal fashion in many ways. One of them is "taxes". Which they harp on endlessly on television. Which they have "no right" to whatsoever. That they can never "collect" if you decide not to pay. That they never could get around. Except to move the "collection point" to some far off island and put it in a trust. Which still does not work. Property taxes. Some won't dare go near that one same deal. Sue in court you wind up in the Supreme court. Which only issues opinion that everyone honors for the most part. They will never call it "law" maybe on television that dosen't mean shit of course. Don't pay your taxes get a nasty letter is all it amounts to. Sherriffs sale for back taxes on a house. TAKE NOTE THEY ARE ALL VACANT THE ONES SOLD AT A SHERRIFFS SALE FOR BACK TAXES. Or some fast talking swindler buys the note and trys to get something out of you. Ask yourself why do they sell the tax note and not just seize the property. Because they can't. So you aren't getting your 1.5 million out of me. You can't even fucking add because I would owe way more than that if your taxation had any validity at all. You want your 1.5 million? I've got your 1.5 million right between my legs.
I really look forward to some dweeb now getting on here to talk about "taxes". Know what I don't give a fuck for your drones or you.
I know there are some well government types that watch all of this. They monitor of course. Don't ever think this place is "free". So for them I haven't paid taxes in well 18 years. So fuck off. They even stopped sending me letters. I have repeated this several times in this forum. In fact they can "fuck off" in general. Why because they are nothing but a bunch of crooks. Fast talking the public. Selling me Nationlism and Democracy. I don't believe in their bullshit anymore than I believe Jesus treaded water.
Property investment isn't all its cracked up to be there are a hunderd thousand things you need to know. Little shit details that can make your day go really fucking bad. Don't believe me ask anyone in here thats in it.
There are better ways to live life. Deal is they will never teach you them in school. Much less bring up taxes as a subject in school. (funny ain't it). Well there is the "tea party" I guess. That they can get away with. You will never be taught to be self sufficent in school. You will only be prepared to work for others. You gave independece a good shot kid. Deal is it ain't over. There are things that are far and better than property investment. That have way, way, way, less work involved. Simple enough. They just don't want you to know about them because you will run not walk away from the debt and the bonded servitude they want you in. Those two things don't ignore. They aren't from any God. Those two things are very much earthly.
The housing bubble was a preplanned scam hatched at Basel 2 in 1998 when bogus risk management was adopted and when off balance sheet accounting of bad loans was adopted.
Respectfully bgamall. I have to disagree with that. Another misnomer was that it was "subprime loans" the frost is obviously off the pumpkin on that one. In that the lie did not work (subprime) all prime loans (good rates) are caving in also. So thats obvious. I completely understand you are genuine in your thinking. As all of us have the temptation to "look deeper" into a financial culture of swindel that has endless schemes.
You can start right at Fannie Mae "securitized" loans and stop there. Freddie Mac has had little if any "bearing" on the market. Savings and loan and banks could not handle the bad frieght of loans. Here I will give you an example. What you don't know or may not know if your not aquianted with foreclouser. Which many did not pay attention to heretofore. There were on average 4500 to 5000 forelousers on average A MONTH (low side really) in LA county. When the economy was really, really good. Or in a good steady economy. That is a very steady number. What is really failed at being looked at that is in EVERY county around a major city. So dopey fucking China FAILS again. Honest to God they need to stick to growing rice anything economic they might as well stick their heads up a cows ass to get a look at steak. The MBS scheme is a fucking failure. Someone needs to tell them that. I just did. More than likely. They will get conned or forget that fact again. BANKS WILL NOT TAKE THOSE KINDS OF LOSSES. S&L's failed in losses of that nature.
If you don't believe me on that foreclouser rate. You need to grab reports on that as quick as you can. Thing is they have closed down many of the "county sites" trying to hide the losses.
Ok so you are basically saying that Fannie and Freddie "sold" their paper to these outfits or they were in some way connected to "Fannie and Freddie"? What your doing is pointing to something like a LaSalle or something that does loans over the Fannie-Freddie limits it seems like. Those are really high risk loans.
Boom. Well I guess I get that. Interesting article. BGAMALL. Never considered that. I guess I did from sight value on the Real Estate itself physically. Never did consider that kind of securitization. Know what not a whole lot written on that. From what I have seen and read. Thanks very interesting.
I really feel for you! I was in the same boat... Honoring my responsibility to death!
Doing the right thing! Then I realize that getting rid of the property by all means is right thing to do! It was emotionally difficult experience( I was conflicted since I never even been late on any of my bills) but once I got rid of the property through foreclosure, I felt liberated, alive! I checked with local bankruptcy attorney and tax attorney prior to proceed with the foreclosure. Now I have relocated to a state with much lower living cost and happily renting! Please know that there is always light at the end of the tunnel. I feel that home ownership is overrated and my flux life works better with renting! You are free about to move!
So sorry this happen to you . I also live in the Orlando area. But you brought a house things happen in life . If all worked out while you were renting the house out and if it worked out in 30 yrs the house be paided off and alll be well ? But it didn't so you walk away.? imho I don't know maybe it's me but I alway's had to go to the bank for a loan they never came to me .
YW, Artimus. Spread the word. The problem is, the Fox concept of focusing on the CRA and the GSE's actually hid the central banks and the private investment banks and the shadow originators from blame.
bgamall. Your writting is VERY sophisticated. I see in some ways what your trying to impart. However its going to take some time to read that carefully. With concentration.
I try to simplify what I write. Of course I am trying to speak to the everyday guy. You are probably read by "professionals". That have more of a working knowledge of the industry.
I believe in the "Asset" of course. Paper can do little if not very little in my opinon. If I deal in "paper". I feel I am going to "get screwed". As many that thought they "knew paper" before the mortgage blowout did. Legal tender is very slight of hand in my opinion. If you can't live in it. Eat it, milk it, ride it or screw it. Its not worth much to me.
Your a fairly sharp guy BG. Thats a really good read.
If I put a value on these houses. Say a split level 3 bedroom. Taking 3 months to "throw up" using true cost of materials. You would be very suprised at the price and length of the mortgage. I would put it at. I "know" the building industry really well. People that take things on face value. Its good not to take things at face value or what your told. Because in ones life here, there is virtually "no trading" just fixed pricing. Thats really screwed because you will never look into the true cost or value of ANY asset including a candy bar. Because you are schooled in everything you see that everything is take it or leave it. No one has ANY trading experince in this country. Because its all fixed pricing. Notice that.
In fact they could care less if you take it or leave it. Go into any store. They could give a damn. The labor is there and thats the bottom line. The labor to finish the goods and make the asset. Truck the asset. Shelve the asset. Check that asset out. Bag it and take it to the car.
Meaning? The everyday guy is their labor force. Once again paper is plentiful to them. You may believe in the system thats your choice of course. Paper to me is a really bad measure. Of a hard asset you should consider "without" the measure of paper. Think about this if they did have trading even with cash. Where you could trade say oh paper for a steak and tell the guy hey I'm not paying for it. I want a better trade. A. You would figure out whats going on and what it takes to get that steak to you. NOTHING. B. They could not fix the measure of that paper to keep you around. Cause you could trade your little way out of the "trap". C. The amount of people being suckered and not knowing anything vs the hip, savvy traders. Would drop like a rock off a mountain. Once again "paper" cost them virtually nothing. Can make all they want Its the only legal means of trade. "Legal tender". Your government made it so and they don't even fucking print it or have any say so. Which makes for nothing but unbridled colussion with your government and the "debt merchants". Wonder why the fucking government cares about selling houses? or cars? or anything? Even some of those nitwits don't get the fact its about labor. End the Fed? How about scraping paper and legal tender?
So if I walk up to a builder and say hey guy I know what you built this for. Heres the deal. Know what hes going to think to himself? I've got a million fucking suckers out here. Then hes going to tell me to buzz off. Ignorance never helps me in getting a good deal. Why. Because everything is "fixed pricing". No one looks at it any other way.
The bottom, bottom line. They use paper to a measure of time at labor for them. True some people have more. But deal is most of the country lives in a 3 bedroom. Thats simple fact. Certain jobs pay certain "wages". Don't think they don't use that. A simple look at the grocery store. Which guys never go to and I highly recommend will give you a really good look at the bullshit they pull on the little woman and its really easy to read. Also really, really easy to see what they are up to. A guy like you BG could figure that place out in very few looksee's
Then it might really occur to you. That little guy that had the store down the road was in business for himself. Hes no longer around. The Bar. That independent Restaruant closed. Then you look up at J.C. Penny or Macys, Sears. Saying to yourself that should have been closed a long fucking time ago. They "flood" those places with cash. If something goes wrong hey no problem its paper. The mall is vacant all GD week long. Not on the weekends. You have to wonder is something wrong? Can you afford the rent or anything but the franchise fee in the right place using company supplied food like a McDonalds? It ain't good planning. Its very well contrived. Your now a super manager. You don't get anywhere without a loan. Thats the truth. Everything is measured to be way overpriced for what it is to get your labor being the purpose and to keep you at it. Someone needs to tell somebody like Lou Dobbs that fucking debt isn't wealth. Its less than poor. That your a whale on the end of a harpoon when you have a 30 year mortgage. I swear these people think they are really in it. When all they do is fucking owe.
After all your not like the guy in fucking Brazil that has livestock everywhere. Food growing wild everywhere. A lake he just came back from fishing sitting there waiting like hes on vacation for a sunset with a huge house he built for himself and owes nothing. Does not much and answers to no one. That goes on all over the GD world. They ain't never going to show you that. You get Jabba the hut, Columbian drug runners and terrorists. What you have here is as good as it gets. Thats all your ever going to know, see or hear, here.
"Someone" might own stock. Its not fixed to any asset. You may well figure out thats an easy conduit right there. If it is fixed to an asset I want a new car for my GM stock. Same swindel. Just a different way of doing it.
Someone needs to tell somebody like Lou Dobbs that fucking debt isn't wealth.
I agree, not to the borrower, anyway. However, it is wealth to the lender. That is the problem.
Yes, that's the problem in a nutshell.
Debt IS wealth to the lender. It's control over labor. It's making people do things for you. It's making them into your servants.
The debtor must serve the lender, and the police enforce this servitude at the point of a gun through perfectly legal threats such as evictions, repossessions, and in the case of the national debt, through threat of prison for those who refuse to pay taxes because much of their taxes go to pay interest on the completely involuntary national debt.
There's nothing new here really. Check the bible Proverbs 22:7: "The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender."
See the book "Who Rules America". That's where I was enlightened about the one and only goal of the 0.1%: control over the labor of other people.
Debt for productive investment can be a good thing, but debt for consumption, especially mortgage debt, is all about making people into your servants.
Sorry to hear that story, hope it ends up better. Hearing things like that make me hesitate. I have a downpayment, have a very stable job, really would love to buy a house and settle down with a 15 year loan, but that nagging "Just what if...?" of losing a job, getting seriously sick, parents getting hurt, marriage/kids taking more money. There's too much turmoil possible in life and in the greater economy at this point.
See the book "Who Rules America". That's where I was enlightened about the one and only goal of the 0.1%: control over the labor of other people.
Thanks Patrick, I'll be sure to get that. I like some of what Ron Paul had to say. However one thing. They always carry on the same way as the last guy when they get in there. So I figure whats the point?
Its really sad they never taught self-sufficiency in school how to be self sustaining. I know I have never encountered it at any level. Believe me I know bank presidents. Lawyers, doctors, manufacturers even people that own car dealerships and franchise owners. Not to mention Joe Torre. HAHA. Personally. None of those people are self-sustaining in any way and have to be a part of the "paper culture" just like anyone else. You think doctors get out of it. I have seen a few bankrupt. Lawyers too. Mr. Torre is a nice guy and does well for himself in case your curious.
You are making the best decision for your family. However, you made it too late. You should have stopped paying the mortgage when you had maximum cash, then continued to rent the place out to amass even more money.
It's funny how everyone on this blog is sympathetic to your ordeal. When I defaulted a few years ago I was persecuted for my decision, and even Patrick himself told me "I don't want to pay for your default". I told him he already had.
In any event whatever you do, make sure you rent the place out and fight the foreclosure tooth and nail. Default on your credit cards, and all other installment debt.
The banks are still disorganized. They will split your debt among bill collectors and you will see how easy it is to fight them in court and prevail. None of them have any of the documents that can prove that you own the debt. I did some online research and paid $39 to get over 40K dismissed. Hell if you want the documents, post your email and I will send them to you for free!
Take it from someone who knows. I had over 1 mil. in outstanding debt nearing a divorce, and under tremendous amounts of stress in my family life. Now my wife and I hi-five ass we pass each other in our new digs. Guess the operative word.
I can't go into detail. Let's just say I will never pay another mortgage ever. My credit is shot and that's just the way I like it. When the banks run former loan owners to see who can pay, I won't hit and saving 5K a month cash, is the best revenge.
I often wonder to myself. Just how much credibility do I have with people? I when I write. Do people believe what I am saying is genuine? Some people are everyday people. They eat. They sleep. Have friends.
Whats in all this for me? One might wonder. I have no endorsement.
The news. The government. They spend endless fucking days endorsing each other. I know how that fucking game goes believe me.
Notice the difference. Everyday people. Like us. In order to be credible have to make sense. I don't ever endorse or quote any shitbucket thats on the "Debt Merchant" news financial, news or anything they own. Notice that. I never quote those people any of them. Unless its in parody. They don't nessesarly have to make sense. They just make sense from the standpoint of what they are "selling you".
When people deal with each other "everyday people" or "ordinary people". They look for inconsistencies and fault. Sometimes to help.
When you are looking at the Debt merchant news. You might want to do what I do. Look for fucking motive and lies.
Once again people are suspicious of strangers or should be. Now if its a friendly chat. Im not going to get all that wary. But when they start fucking with my future. Or telling me whats good. Giving me advice on how to "run" my GD life. Those are really bad people to take advice from. Discovery another words. Should not necessarily come from "Debt Merchant" sources.
I get the "Debt Merchant" news and financial news. They give credibility to the way they want life to be. They "add in" credibility to everything they do. They "demonstrate" credibility on a daily basis. WHY? SO YOU WILL BELIEVE THEM. What we have to do is make sense to each other of course. One of the things that gives me credibility with some people here is the fact. That I give NO credibility to above said debt merchants. See that. Some people just don't like being gullible. I will continue to write here. For my friends here that are not gullible. That refuse to be herded into "stupid living". I very much enjoy reading the things they say that "make sense". Anything that trashes this stupid system designed for an 9 year old. Designed to make you a think like an unassuming child. By manipulation-you may be tempted to start thinking anything the idiots say is the closest thing you can get to scripture. They go for that continually.
Artimus Maxtor 10:13 Foremost and utmost. Don't believe "The Government" has any fucking "authority" in anything whatsoever.
Country Joe and the fish is part of that huge lending network that "owns" the Fed. Hes talking to his "other" compart, Sub-division.
Country Joe. "We have a "glut" of foreclosures. What are we going to do Sub"?
Sub-division "Principle reduction".
Country Joe "Yea Sub. Just one little problem. What the fuck do we tell the people that paid on time that aren't getting a principle reduction"? For christ's sake Sub you fucking moron. Everyones going to want one".
Sub-division "Robo signing". Add in a couple of more "mistakes" we have done to mortgage holders and we have got it.
Country Joe "WTF is Robo signing"?
Sub-Division "Its a computer that makes a mistake."
Country Joe "A computer that makes a fucking mistake. Whos going to buy into that"?
Sub-Division "Hopefully the people that busted their nuts trying to pay their mortgage on time. We will just ROBO them."
Country Joe "ROBOED you mean like getting fucked. Sounds workable. I'll make sure to get it on our news. Just hope the people that pay on time. Don't remember they didn't like the idea handing out deals to the people that are behind on payments to begin with".
Sub-Division "It will wind up going to court".
Country Joe "It better. I don't want some guy with a 800 credit score ripping my fucking head off". Lets do that and settle. You know the drill. The "government" will love playing this one. The lawyers. are the ones that pay insurace (errors and ommisions insurance) for these kind of mistakes. The fact they are "liable". Not us. Keep that fucking quiet. Also the fact we don't even handle the foreclosures they do. Keep those fucking welfare stories off of the same page our stories are on".
Sub-Division "Yea the "paper". HAHAHAHA". Just call me the undertoad. HAHAHAHA.
He says that the borrowers are at fault for the housing bubble. He does that for votes. He knows full well that the source of the speculation was the financial sector.
Gary Anderson strategicdefaultbooks.com
To say he's doing it for votes doesn't really make any sense.
Also, clearly both sides are at fault. Nobody forced anyone to borrow what they couldn't afford. Banks knew full well they wouldn't get re-paid and that tax payers would foot the bill. At the same time, greedy people were hoping for profit and/or too stupid to realize they couldn't pay it back.
IMO everyone with a half a brain knew it was unsustainable, but everyone wanted their piece of the pie.
By the way 2003. Thats right about the time a LOT of investors went to Florida. Many of them got burned really badly. On what was a win situation for about 2-3 years. Id have to say it was about the largest drop-out and scourging of property investors. I have ever seen. The only other place that could come close is CA probably well past FL. I'd rather try to screw a crocadile than buy from a realtor out there. I feel bad for CA. The values are explainable for some. They get it.